"Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot" - Page 4

"Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot"

This is a discussion on "Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Knightrider Popping rounds into someones backside is one thing that isn't allowed in this situation. Unless you have specific case law to ...

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Thread: "Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot"

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightrider View Post
    Popping rounds into someones backside is one thing that isn't allowed in this situation.
    Unless you have specific case law to cite, I will label your assertion as just plain wrong.


  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Walked in on a drug deal, eh?

    I see.

    Having represented dealers, their are effectively 2 kinds of drug deals:

    1) A retail street transaction. These are fast, and the people do not hang around. It is a small denomination transaction for a small amount of drugs. I want 3 rocks of crack, I give you 3 $20's and we depart, because the more we hang around the more likely it is that a cop will see us, know you are a scumbag dealer and I am a junkie, and come by, break both our stones, take my fix and your money, and if we are lucky, beat the stuffing out of us and if we aren't, send us to jail where I will have to detox in a pool of sweat and vomit.

    2) Significant weight transaction. These are bags & briefcases of drugs in exchange for "Motivation for killing" amounts of money. You don't walk into this kind of thing, and if you do, you end up being an unidentified corpse in the woods till someone ID's your prints.

    Put simply, I do not believe this story.

    I want to see proof in the form of a police report or a medical report before I accept this account. Redacting names & personal info is fine...but I need independent verification.
    I don't doubt that you are correct about how these drug things go, and I also somewhat disbelieve the story.

    Still, folks do get attacked in a similar fashion sometimes for thrills. So the issue of shoot/don't shoot is still an interesting one to discuss and debate.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    How EXACTLY was this identified as a "drug deal"?
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Walked in on a drug deal, eh?

    I see.

    Having represented dealers, their are effectively 2 kinds of drug deals:

    1) A retail street transaction. These are fast, and the people do not hang around. It is a small denomination transaction for a small amount of drugs. I want 3 rocks of crack, I give you 3 $20's and we depart, because the more we hang around the more likely it is that a cop will see us, know you are a scumbag dealer and I am a junkie, and come by, break both our stones, take my fix and your money, and if we are lucky, beat the stuffing out of us and if we aren't, send us to jail where I will have to detox in a pool of sweat and vomit.

    2) Significant weight transaction. These are bags & briefcases of drugs in exchange for "Motivation for killing" amounts of money. You don't walk into this kind of thing, and if you do, you end up being an unidentified corpse in the woods till someone ID's your prints.

    Put simply, I do not believe this story.

    I want to see proof in the form of a police report or a medical report before I accept this account. Redacting names & personal info is fine...but I need independent verification.
    This is a weak challenge to the credibility of the OP's account. Your educated scenario, 1) by no means absolutely and exhaustively covers it. You assume that buyer and seller are simultaneously present. Drug buyers / sellers can and do stake a claim to meeting points and woe unto any who violate their temporary claim.

    For example, these could be two desparate druggies "hanging around" to meet the supplier. Their attack could be a brain-addled reaction to potential interruption of the deal yet to be. Could be: take out the interloper (dragging the man (woman?) and dog bodies out of sight) and the deal goes according to same time and place.

    From the previous link, the OP does live near a badly drug-infested area. For only three posts, at least the OP is consistent.

    All that said, police report would seal it. Better journalistic style of the OP would help. In the end, it's just a scenario for discussion, as said.

    Gun in hand, perps' backsides and elbows flapping, the OP did right to refrain from firing, as the threat is clearly over, and he should post-incident assess / survey and retreat for safety to call - as he seems to have done.

    Good, albeit quirky, post.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  5. #50
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    As with everything else, there's two schools of thought here. Did you know the extent of your injuries? Probably not. What if they were mortal wounds? Regardless of the law, how would you feel about those cowards that meted out your demise fleeing, and most likely never getting caught, or caught and given lite prison sentences because some of it was your fault, you were there. If they're still not a threat to you fleeing, why are you still lying there bleeding? Before long it will be illegal to squish a cockroach on your own kitchen floor.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    As with everything else, there's two schools of thought here. Did you know the extent of your injuries? Probably not. What if they were mortal wounds? Regardless of the law, how would you feel about those cowards that meted out your demise fleeing, and most likely never getting caught, or caught and given lite prison sentences because some of it was your fault, you were there. If they're still not a threat to you fleeing, why are you still lying there bleeding? Before long it will be illegal to squish a cockroach on your own kitchen floor.
    Like I mentioned earlier, the assertion that someone who has initiated a lethal force confrontation eliminates the legality of a lethal response directed at them simply by turning their back to their victim is simply wrong.

  7. #52
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    What, you mean, OMG he might be lying?

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO say it isn't so.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    This is a weak challenge to the credibility of the OP's account. Your educated scenario, 1) by no means absolutely and exhaustively covers it. You assume that buyer and seller are simultaneously present. Drug buyers / sellers can and do stake a claim to meeting points and woe unto any who violate their temporary claim.

    For example, these could be two desparate druggies "hanging around" to meet the supplier. Their attack could be a brain-addled reaction to potential interruption of the deal yet to be. Could be: take out the interloper (dragging the man (woman?) and dog bodies out of sight) and the deal goes according to same time and place.

    From the previous link, the OP does live near a badly drug-infested area. For only three posts, at least the OP is consistent.

    All that said, police report would seal it. Better journalistic style of the OP would help. In the end, it's just a scenario for discussion, as said.

    Gun in hand, perps' backsides and elbows flapping, the OP did right to refrain from firing, as the threat is clearly over, and he should post-incident assess / survey and retreat for safety to call - as he seems to have done.

    Good, albeit quirky, post.
    Doesn't take much to challenge the op's credibility.

  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Unless you have specific case law to cite, I will label your assertion as just plain wrong.
    I think Tennessee v. Garner pretty much sums up the whole shooting someone that is running away from you deal. You only can shoot to stop the threat, not to shoot for vengeance. If someone pulls a knife on you, then you pull your gun out and they start to run from you. It is unreasonable to be "in fear of your life" at that point. It would even be different if they pulled a gun. I think you should read up on the law before you start shooting folks in the back and end up in jail.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    For example, these could be two desparate druggies "hanging around" to meet the supplier.
    No, it couldn't: "I had walked into a drug deal taking place..."
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightrider View Post
    I think Tennessee v. Garner pretty much sums up the whole shooting someone that is running away from you deal. You only can shoot to stop the threat, not to shoot for vengeance. If someone pulls a knife on you, then you pull your gun out and they start to run from you. It is unreasonable to be "in fear of your life" at that point. It would even be different if they pulled a gun. I think you should read up on the law before you start shooting folks in the back and end up in jail.
    The shooting of a clearly-unarmed suspect who has committed no physical harm by an LEO simply as a means of preventing escape in no way equates to the lethal force defense of one's life against those who have already committed felonious assault upon that person.
    Last edited by Mike1956; November 7th, 2011 at 02:27 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightrider View Post
    I think Tennessee v. Garner pretty much sums up the whole shooting someone that is running away from you deal. You only can shoot to stop the threat, not to shoot for vengeance. If someone pulls a knife on you, then you pull your gun out and they start to run from you. It is unreasonable to be "in fear of your life" at that point. It would even be different if they pulled a gun. I think you should read up on the law before you start shooting folks in the back and end up in jail.
    Really? They could turn and throw that knife and kill you instantly. They could back off 50 ft, turn and charge and be on you in 3 or 4 seconds or throw the knife from 20 feet and nail you in the neck.

    Perception of when the threat ends is hard to prove, but is part of the equation. Just on common sense grounds,
    AOJ-intent as well, an aggressor backing off doesn't mean the game is over. Obviously distance counts. In the instance we discussed the initial vicious attack is part of what one could reasonably factor in determining jeopardy/intent.

    I practice empty handed disarms of knife attackers at the gym. My instructor can have his back to me, at about 20 feet, turn and be on me in a flash.

    Again, I agree that if a shot was fired one might have a hard time convincing the authorities that it wasn't fired in revenge, but it is also not unreasonable that it was fired to stop a continuing threat, back to you or not.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Garner v. TN is a police use of force case dealing with the constitutionality of the statute allowing the killing of a fleeing felon.

    People overstate it's impact on non-LE cases.
    Hopyard likes this.

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    This is a weak challenge to the credibility of the OP's account. Your educated scenario, 1) by no means absolutely and exhaustively covers it. You assume that buyer and seller are simultaneously present. Drug buyers / sellers can and do stake a claim to meeting points and woe unto any who violate their temporary claim.
    True story time...

    Once upon a time this drug dealer got in trouble. He just finished with girlfriend #2 and took a call from #3 in earshot of #2. #2 gets PISSED and called the cops, telling them he tried to kill her.

    Cops arrive and haul DD away. Charged including domestic violence, assault 1st degree, strangulation, and so forth. (In she was high and pissed she wasn't enough for him, that came out later...)

    In holding, DD tells me that he wants to deal himself out of trouble, so he tells me to ask the police if they want to hear about what happened to "T". So I ask, and suddenly, I've got a detective who is very interested in talking to me about "T"...one thing leads to another I'm in the interview room at the courthouse with the police, DD and we are all talking about "T" and the tragic fate which befell him.

    T, you see, attempted to make a delivery of crack (like dominos pizza, you call, he haul...) on K's turf.

    K & T are crack dealers, my guy DD, he's a heroin dealer. Now...crack dealers & heroin dealers are territorial...but not against people who sell different product.

    K was cool with DD...but not with T coming over to make a delivery.

    T comes by, one thing leads to another and the next thing we know, T slugs K, and K decided this was enough and puts 6 rounds of .380ACP into T.

    In front of DD.

    Didn't think nothing over it.

    My point to this story, other than DD, T & K are all interesting guys (DD Especially, because he got more...than a toilet seat) is that drug dealers are in it for the MONEY.

    If their isn't any profit in hurting people, they generally won't.

    Like I said, I don't believe the walking into a deal and getting attacked story.

  15. #60
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    If the story is true or not; the subject of shooting a fleeing felon, especially if he injured or attempted to kill you has appeared in numerous posts, having recently moved from Missouri I had a passing knowledge of a statute in Missouri law. It would be VERY thin ice, but after the fact just might get your @ out of the sling....

    Missouri's citizen's arrest statute (563.051) points out that a private person may use deadly force to effect an arrest only:

    1. In self-defense; or

    2. When he reasonably believes deadly force to be authorized under the circumstances and he is directed to do so by a law enforcement officer; or

    3. When he reasonably believes the use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest of a person who at that time and in his presence committed a murder or another class A felony (such as armed robbery, first degree assault, or forcible rape); or

    4. When he reasonably believes the use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest of a person who at that time and in his presence is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon.
    As I said, very thin ice and I would't hang my hat on it before the fact (thinking this law would protect me so I shoot) but if, in the heat of the assault a perp was shot in the back while fleeing; thin ice is better than no ice.

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