"Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot" - Page 5

"Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot"

This is a discussion on "Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT Like I said, I don't believe the walking into a deal and getting attacked story. I don't think you are the ...

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Thread: "Don't be a victim of your own mistakes, Shoot or Don't Shoot"

  1. #61
    Senior Member Array bbqgrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Like I said, I don't believe the walking into a deal and getting attacked story.
    I don't think you are the Lone Ranger on this one but, if you are; call me Tonto.
    "To believe that social reforms can eradicate evil altogether is to forget that evil is a protean creature, forever assuming a new shape when deprived of an old one." - SAT

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  2. #62
    Senior Member Array boatail's Avatar
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    I don't know if the post is true or not, but IF it was..I would rely on my instinct at the moment. If I percieve I'm not threatened anymore, I won't pull the trigger. If I do, I will, and deal with that choice later. All you can do before hand is train,train,train and that will help in your decision.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    If the story is true or not; the subject of shooting a fleeing felon, especially if he injured or attempted to kill you has appeared in numerous posts, having recently moved from Missouri I had a passing knowledge of a statute in Missouri law. It would be VERY thin ice, but after the fact just might get your @ out of the sling....



    As I said, very thin ice and I would't hang my hat on it before the fact (thinking this law would protect me so I shoot) but if, in the heat of the assault a perp was shot in the back while fleeing; thin ice is better than no ice.
    Doesn't look thin from here. Item #3 appears to be a hat-hanger in the circumstances described by the OP.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    ...From the previous link, the OP does live near a badly drug-infested area. For only three posts, at least the OP is consistent.

    ....

    Actually he says he's from Shingle Springs,, that's about a 100 miles from Oakland and it's drug infested streets. Shingle Springs is a small, primarily white rural communtity with very little crime. A search of the Eldorado County sherrifs logs turns up nothing of a crime matching the OP's account. The call for BS is probably the correct one. Unless this guy drives 100 miles to Oakland to walk his dog.

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    Sadly

    I absoluely agree with your decision not to take the shot. Of course, we can't back shoot when they are fleeing; however, I would suggest that there should be a legal exception that allows a below the waist disabling shot. Granted, we all may not have the ability to accurately make that shot under pressure; but it would sure give the cops something to look for when they canvas the hospitals.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Array Chief1297's Avatar
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    If they were that close and my dog didnt bark, growl or wag his tail at least, I would get me another dog!! I am unsure as to what I would do if I were laying there bleeding while they tried to finish the job. i know if they were within 30 ft, I would still be in fear for my life.
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  7. #67
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by America1st View Post
    I absoluely agree with your decision not to take the shot. Of course, we can't back shoot when they are fleeing; however, I would suggest that there should be a legal exception that allows a below the waist disabling shot. Granted, we all may not have the ability to accurately make that shot under pressure; but it would sure give the cops something to look for when they canvas the hospitals.
    Ah yes, shoot to wound. Good way to have to pay for the perp's lifetime medical care when you make a paraplegic out of him. Shooting at someone fleeing is a good way to live for many years at your state's expense.
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #68
    tts
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    Wow! Smart not to take the shot. In Washington, you must establish that there is an imminent threat to your life at the moment you pull the trigger. I can't even imaging how a CA jury would look at this...

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by America1st View Post
    I absoluely agree with your decision not to take the shot. Of course, we can't back shoot when they are fleeing; however, I would suggest that there should be a legal exception that allows a below the waist disabling shot. Granted, we all may not have the ability to accurately make that shot under pressure; but it would sure give the cops something to look for when they canvas the hospitals.
    He wasn't fleeing, but retreating to a more tactical position from which to resume his attack.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tts View Post
    Wow! Smart not to take the shot. In Washington, you must establish that there is an imminent threat to your life at the moment you pull the trigger. I can't even imaging how a CA jury would look at this...
    Just stabbed, bleeding out, going to lose consciousness in the next five to ten seconds, seems imminent to me.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    The shooting of a clearly-unarmed suspect who has committed no physical harm by an LEO simply as a means of preventing escape in no way equates to the lethal force defense of one's life against those who have already committed felonious assault upon that person.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Really? They could turn and throw that knife and kill you instantly. They could back off 50 ft, turn and charge and be on you in 3 or 4 seconds or throw the knife from 20 feet and nail you in the neck.

    Perception of when the threat ends is hard to prove, but is part of the equation. Just on common sense grounds,
    AOJ-intent as well, an aggressor backing off doesn't mean the game is over. Obviously distance counts. In the instance we discussed the initial vicious attack is part of what one could reasonably factor in determining jeopardy/intent.

    I practice empty handed disarms of knife attackers at the gym. My instructor can have his back to me, at about 20 feet, turn and be on me in a flash.

    Again, I agree that if a shot was fired one might have a hard time convincing the authorities that it wasn't fired in revenge, but it is also not unreasonable that it was fired to stop a continuing threat, back to you or not.
    Ok, I'll tell you guys what. Shoot someone in the back while they are running away and tell me how that work out for you. Or why don't you ask the guy that got robbed at walmart then shot his robber in the backside and killed him. He is being charged with murder, as well as he should be.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightrider View Post
    Ok, I'll tell you guys what. Shoot someone in the back while they are running away and tell me how that work out for you. Or why don't you ask the guy that got robbed at walmart then shot his robber in the backside and killed him. He is being charged with murder, as well as he should be.
    We are discussing someone who has just criminally used lethal force on a victim, not someone running away with a wallet. Big difference.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    We are discussing someone who has just criminally used lethal force on a victim, not someone running away with a wallet. Big difference.
    No we are talking about someone that has ran away and is no longer a threat to you. A murder charge is a murder charge no mater how you look at it.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tts View Post
    Wow! Smart not to take the shot. In Washington, you must establish that there is an imminent threat to your life at the moment you pull the trigger. I can't even imaging how a CA jury would look at this...
    Trying to find the RCW for that one. Help?
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by jumpwing View Post
    Trying to find the RCW for that one. Help?
    I sat in on a case at King County District Court where case law sighting the "imminent threat" test was used. The relevant RCW is 9A.16.050: Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.:

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his or her presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his or her presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he or she is.
    By that statute, the person had already committed the felony and/or done great personal injury so the use of deadly force would not be lawful.


    Relavent excerpt from Wikipedia on Deadly Force:

    In the United States, a civilian may legally use deadly force when it is considered justifiable homicide, that is to say when the civilian feels their own life, or the lives of their family or those around them are in legitimate and imminent danger. However, self-defense resulting in usage of deadly force by a civilian or civilians against an individual or individuals is often subject to examination by a court if it is unclear whether it was necessary at the point of the offense, and whether any further action on the part of the law needs to be taken.
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