Congress to vote on Nat'l CCW Nov. 15

This is a discussion on Congress to vote on Nat'l CCW Nov. 15 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ecrist You're way too hung-up on the Yankee and California thing. My 'yankee' MN rights seem more favorable to carry when I ...

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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecrist View Post
    You're way too hung-up on the Yankee and California thing. My 'yankee' MN rights seem more favorable to carry when I read the law books than your southern state. Lets focus less on Yankees and Californians and more on our right to defend ourselves as a population, perhaps?

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    Congratulations on living in a state that recognzes 2A.
    Don't get hung up on labels. Azchevy is talking about News York and Jersey. And he's right.

    Quote Originally Posted by laguna0seca View Post
    My concern is that if you force say, California, to recognize permits from other states, because they issue a permit to very few people, would they just decide that it is in their best interest to change their law to not allow any Concealed Carry.
    CA may very likely join IL as a 2A holdout banning one way or another: state level or populated local level.
    CA needs better than 822 that excludes residents.
    HR 2900 enforces out-of-state permits for residents.
    Sanity is an issue here. Talk about 2A, talk about 41 states with "shall issue". CA voters elect the general assembly of bankruptcy, Sens. Boxer and Feinstein, Gov. Jerry Brown, Rep. Pelosi.... It isn't even funny.
    This state needs legal enforcement of the US Constitution by Gura's winning in the Supreme Court or some semblence by Congress' enacting a bill, currently in the form of HR 2900.
    Last edited by Pistology; November 16th, 2011 at 08:22 AM. Reason: language & logic
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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  3. #47
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveWorkman View Post
    This is ROUND ONE.
    It still faces the Senate.


    Showdown looming on national concealed carry

    Next Tuesday, Nov. 15, the U.S. House of Representatives is scheduled to vote on legislation that would require all states to honor the concealed carry licenses or permits issued by other states, and the bill – H.R. 822 – is taking fire from certain corners on both sides.

    Showdown looming on national concealed carry - Seattle gun rights | Examiner.com
    Not my wish. Think Fed permission to CCW only if Fed standardization of CCW regulations. One without the other over-rides communities' choices for their own. My own view............

  4. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology
    Sanity is an issue here. Talk about 2A, talk about 41 states with "shall issue". CA voters elect the general assembly of bankruptcy, Sens. Boxer and Feinstein, Gov. Jerry Brown, Rep. Pelosi.... It isn't even funny.
    This state needs legal enforcement of the US Constitution by Gura's winning in the Supreme Court or some semblence by Congress' enacting a bill, currently in the form of HR 2900.
    Some interesting statistics about California. Courtesy of the following link: California QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau As compared to the rest of the USA, California has a significantly below average percentage of White and Black population with a significantly above average Asian and Hispanic population and above average rate of English being a secondary language. In most other regards, including education, income, home ownership, etc it is pretty close to average. This would seem to indicate that there is some form of culture differences at play here, possibly due to an overwhelmingly large immigrant population.

  5. #49
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    You may have something there.
    Proving cause and effect requires that the cause precedes the effect, that it explain the effect, and to the exclusion of any other possible cause.

    To that end, let's use Texas as a pro-2A contrast. Per Capita federal spending is close for both states = 8.6 times the national average for CA and 8.4 times the national average for TX. It's an interesting and important statisic showing that both states are heavily tied to the nation economically.

    Texas' Hispanic population total is identical California's: 37.6% of the total. Hispanics are long (Conquistadorian days) a part of the populations of (what are now) the southwest border states.

    That said, California's history of the Asian demographic that you indicate (per cent of Asian population relative to the total population) shows growth:
    1930 2.0
    1970 2.8
    1980 5.3
    1990 9.6
    2000 12.4
    2010 13.0

    Until 1990, Texas' Asian population was less than one percent of its total and 20% less than the national average as of the 2010 census.

    Further comparison finds 27% more English as a Second Language (over 5years of age) persons in California than Texas.

    California is most diverse in more ways than Asian population in which Filipinos and Chinese account for a quarter each - a total of half of the Asian population - and they are very different, culturally. I guess CA needs a survey of carry and 2A issues by ethnic origin and whether the respondent voted in the last election (as a measure of activism)?

    The largest states with, IMO, the worst respect for 2A are (in order of 2012 electoral vote total):
    CA 55
    NY 29
    IL 20
    NJ 14
    MA 11
    MD 10

    They have their individual characteristics that are beyond my ability to "quickly" summarize, though you may perceive a trend. If so, chime in. You are perceptive in "quickly" catching the Asian difference in California.

    Among states that voted for Obama in 2008 but that are showing strong Republican presence this election (as by funding): NV, MN, FL, OH, MI, CO, NH, VA, and IA plus those that are close, PA and NJ, and even some of the votes of MA, NM, NC, and NY that are not all out of reach for Republicans, one may see a possible result of enough electoral votes, holding the states that Republicans won last election, for Republicans to win a squeaker for the White House in 2012.

    Anyway, on the national scale, politics is going to be very different in 2013 and maybe more likely to enforce 2A on the states a la Heller, McDonald, and HR2900. But I'm an optimist. In CA, I think I'm outnumbered.
    Last edited by Pistology; November 16th, 2011 at 12:10 PM.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    If this is such a great thing for the support of the second amendment, why do they have to specify "concealed" carry? Why not just leave it as carry? Did the second amendment specify concealed is the only way to carry if you want to enjoy the right?

    I'm not against it, just questioning whether this is the way we want it worded.
    Doesn't really matter how it's worded. If you are in a state that allows OC, then you can OC.

  7. #51
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    The comments on demographics are way off the mark in great respect. Those demographics don't apply in IL, WI, IA, which have (IA changed and WI just changed) till very recently been quite anti. Those demographics don't apply to MA nor to NY State or even to NYC or NJ.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #52
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    In my opinion, these are some of the amendments added to H.R. 822 that need to be defeated before the congress votes on it:
    Amendment No. 2—Rep. McCarthy (D-CA): This amendment would specify that the legislation can only go into effect in states that have passed legislation enacting the bill.

    Amendment No. 3—Rep. Hastings (D-FL): This amendment would exempt states from issuing a carry permit on the basis of state reciprocity which do not require individuals to apply for and complete a carry permit application in person.

    Amendment No. 4—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a state to create a comprehensive database to contain all permits and licenses issued by the state for carrying a concealed weapon and make this comprehensive database available to law enforcement officers from all states 24 hours a day.

    Amendment No. 5—Rep. Conyers (D-MI): This amendment would effectively gut the bill by “preserving” state laws with respect to eligibility for concealed-carry.

    I should add that Rep. Mc Carthy is the most vocal against this legislation and is proposing more than one amendment to this legislation:

    Rep. McCarthy is proposing two amendments to the House Majority: (No. 1) an amendment that would allow states to opt in to the reciprocity agreements mandated by H.R. 822 and (No. 2) an amendment that would allow states to opt out of the agreements.

    Amendment No. 7—Rep. Cohen (D-TN): This amendment would exempt from the bill any state law requiring a person to be at least 21 years of age to possess or carry a concealed handgun.

    Amendment No. 8—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a person intending to carry or possess a concealed handgun in a state to inform that state’s law enforcement of their intentions at least 24 hours prior.

    Amendment No. 9—Rep. Cicilline (D-RI): This amendment would limit the bill from taking effect in a state until the State Attorney General, head of the State police, and the Secretary of State have jointly certified that the other state’s carry laws are substantially similar to its own licensing or permitting requirements.

    Amendment No. 10—Rep. Reichert (R-WA): This amendment would require a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study on the ability of state and local law enforcement authorities to verify the validity of out-of-state concealed firearms permits

  9. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The comments on demographics are way off the mark in great respect. Those demographics don't apply in IL, WI, IA, which have (IA changed and WI just changed) till very recently been quite anti. Those demographics don't apply to MA nor to NY State or even to NYC or NJ.
    Just between CA and TX, I was making a comparison of Asian ethnic origin as a possible cause of CA's denial of 2A. There's no conclusive proof just an interesting point.
    The other states "have their individual characteristics that are beyond my ability to 'quickly' summarize". Just food for thought and, as you imply, there probably is not a neat "cause" in the immigrant cultural difference factor in those states. But it is evident in CA.
    The other states are what I consider to be "swing" states in the 2012 presidential election - just that Republicans have a shot of winning them after they voted for Obama in 2008 - not a comment on their respect for 2A. But of those, NJ, MA, and NY are most notoriously restrictive of 2A. If you see a pattern, please say so.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolocanolo View Post
    In my opinion, these are some of the amendments added to H.R. 822 that need to be defeated before the congress votes on it:
    Amendment No. 2—Rep. McCarthy (D-CA): This amendment would specify that the legislation can only go into effect in states that have passed legislation enacting the bill.

    Amendment No. 3—Rep. Hastings (D-FL): This amendment would exempt states from issuing a carry permit on the basis of state reciprocity which do not require individuals to apply for and complete a carry permit application in person.

    Amendment No. 4—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a state to create a comprehensive database to contain all permits and licenses issued by the state for carrying a concealed weapon and make this comprehensive database available to law enforcement officers from all states 24 hours a day.

    Amendment No. 5—Rep. Conyers (D-MI): This amendment would effectively gut the bill by “preserving” state laws with respect to eligibility for concealed-carry.

    I should add that Rep. Mc Carthy is the most vocal against this legislation and is proposing more than one amendment to this legislation:

    Rep. McCarthy is proposing two amendments to the House Majority: (No. 1) an amendment that would allow states to opt in to the reciprocity agreements mandated by H.R. 822 and (No. 2) an amendment that would allow states to opt out of the agreements.

    Amendment No. 7—Rep. Cohen (D-TN): This amendment would exempt from the bill any state law requiring a person to be at least 21 years of age to possess or carry a concealed handgun.

    Amendment No. 8—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a person intending to carry or possess a concealed handgun in a state to inform that state’s law enforcement of their intentions at least 24 hours prior.

    Amendment No. 9—Rep. Cicilline (D-RI): This amendment would limit the bill from taking effect in a state until the State Attorney General, head of the State police, and the Secretary of State have jointly certified that the other state’s carry laws are substantially similar to its own licensing or permitting requirements.

    Amendment No. 10—Rep. Reichert (R-WA): This amendment would require a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study on the ability of state and local law enforcement authorities to verify the validity of out-of-state concealed firearms permits
    This is a mess, and it hasn't even come to a vote.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  11. #55
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    I would like to ask where the alleged list of amendments in post #52 comes from? According to Bill Summary & Status - 112th Congress (2011 - 2012) - H.R.822 - THOMAS (Library of Congress) (edit: a rule related to) it has passed the house, but there were NO amendments to this bill. Furthermore, according to this site (H.R.822: National Right-to-Carry Reciprocity Act of 2011 - U.S. Congress - OpenCongress), it looks like several million has been spent on bribes to oppose this bill too.

  12. #56
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    Gun Owners of America said that "Supporters of H.R. 822 also want NO amendments (even ones that are pro-gun) to pass to the underlying bill." So I was suprised at the specific list - not that 822 isn't a tweak magnet. That's the problem.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  13. #57
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    I'm wondering if the list is real or if it is propaganda started by someone opposed to it?

    I would like to see an official legislative list, not one from a 'news' or special interest group.

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  14. #58
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    Responding to Post #55, 56 and 57 turn to GOP.gov Legislative Digest.

    If the legislation has been voted on and passed with out amendments, that's great. I was simply stateting that amendments were offered to the legislation, and they would either have to be removed or voted down before a vote could take place. Your job's now is to find out if the legislation passed in it's original wording or with amendments.

    No propaganda here or special interest represention, only one lonely voice in South Florida. I Don't work for a gun company, Ammo distributor, a union, State, County, or Federal Government. Self Employed having to meet a payroll every week for the last 38 years. Paid for my own college education, no student loans or government grants. Full disclosure, now let's have your's?

  15. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by bolocanolo View Post
    In my opinion, these are some of the amendments added to H.R. 822 that need to be defeated before the congress votes on it:
    Amendment No. 2—Rep. McCarthy (D-CA): This amendment would specify that the legislation can only go into effect in states that have passed legislation enacting the bill.

    Amendment No. 3—Rep. Hastings (D-FL): This amendment would exempt states from issuing a carry permit on the basis of state reciprocity which do not require individuals to apply for and complete a carry permit application in person.

    Amendment No. 4—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a state to create a comprehensive database to contain all permits and licenses issued by the state for carrying a concealed weapon and make this comprehensive database available to law enforcement officers from all states 24 hours a day.

    Amendment No. 5—Rep. Conyers (D-MI): This amendment would effectively gut the bill by “preserving” state laws with respect to eligibility for concealed-carry.

    I should add that Rep. Mc Carthy is the most vocal against this legislation and is proposing more than one amendment to this legislation:

    Rep. McCarthy is proposing two amendments to the House Majority: (No. 1) an amendment that would allow states to opt in to the reciprocity agreements mandated by H.R. 822 and (No. 2) an amendment that would allow states to opt out of the agreements.

    Amendment No. 7—Rep. Cohen (D-TN): This amendment would exempt from the bill any state law requiring a person to be at least 21 years of age to possess or carry a concealed handgun.

    Amendment No. 8—Rep. Jackson Lee (D-TX): This amendment would require a person intending to carry or possess a concealed handgun in a state to inform that state’s law enforcement of their intentions at least 24 hours prior.

    Amendment No. 9—Rep. Cicilline (D-RI): This amendment would limit the bill from taking effect in a state until the State Attorney General, head of the State police, and the Secretary of State have jointly certified that the other state’s carry laws are substantially similar to its own licensing or permitting requirements.

    Amendment No. 10—Rep. Reichert (R-WA): This amendment would require a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study on the ability of state and local law enforcement authorities to verify the validity of out-of-state concealed firearms permits
    So these amendments have been offered but not added to the bill? This post makes it sound like they have been added.

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by phreddy View Post
    So these amendments have been offered but not added to the bill? This post makes it sound like they have been added.
    That was my take from the post too. The site gop.gov states that these amendments have been proffered and will each get 10 minutes of debate before voting on whether or not to include them.

    WRT my previous comment, I am suspicious of anything that smells of political activism. I am also suspicious of any user whose first post I see is a tribute pledge to a political party.

    You want full disclosure fine. I don't work for any firearm related industry. After working in private industry for 15 years, after 10 years of college (all paid for without loans) I now work for the state as an engineer for a university utility. Before that, I designed equipment used by big banks and financial companies. I also run a small business with my wife making tie dye clothing. Thankfully, I do well enough to subsidize the growing startup without loans. Politically, I am independent and support representatives and issues based upon my views, most of which is absolutely irrelevant in regards to my support of the 2nd A.

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