Immunity from civil action after a shooting?

This is a discussion on Immunity from civil action after a shooting? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Marty Hayes I didn't realize I was baiting Mac. Sorry. you weren't, other way around... You sell related stuff, mac knows it, ...

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Thread: Immunity from civil action after a shooting?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    I didn't realize I was baiting Mac. Sorry.
    you weren't, other way around...

    You sell related stuff, mac knows it, asks if you can recommend one...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post

    A SD shooting is a VERY, very rare occurrence. It's not common like an auto accident or a slip-and-fall for which we insure ourselves. There's a REASON insurance doesn't make a lot of sense for that one specific act. I carry DEATH insurance. It's guaranteed to happen for 100% of the population.

    I find it odd how many people feel that guns and SD insurance are a great idea, but don't invest in basic insurance to protect their families in case they die - from ANYTHING - including a violent attack. Even if you have a gun on you, there's not guarantee you're going to live.

    If you have a SD shooting, and need a lawyer, you'll get one no matter how much money you have or don't have. Quality may suffer, but the rich are going to be better off - they even have nicer houses and cars than we do, so why not better representation?

    The BEST insurance you can have is knowing your state laws COLD, and always looking for a way - any way - NOT to pull out your gun.
    Absolutely, positively agree with all of this... every single word. This is the Mad Mac I expect to hear.

    And that applies even if (maybe even especially if) you have one of the insurance backed/association backed/or other types of legal fund reimbursement programs.

    Every single bullet has a lawsuit attached to it. Fortunately, unlike modern cartridges, more of them are duds, squibs, and misfires... But each one, even the complete duds, will cost you more than you want to pay.

    Purchasing SD "insurance" is a bit like thinking your carry permit makes you a LEO or a superhero... Just as carrying a gun does not make you a member of the Justice League; having "insurance" does not guarantee that you will not suffer consequences if you use that gun when you shouldn't have.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #33
    Member Array Ruark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    If I'm in my living room, and someone barges in the front door and they are between me and the safe room (whichever that is; bedroom, gun room, safe room), I can kill them where they stand as long as they can harm me with some sort of force (whatever they broke in with, crowbar/bat/jersey boot, what have you). If they are just standing there, I can't kill 'em as long as they are not demonstrating the ability to use force against me.
    That creates a really weird mental picture. That's saying somebody can just barge into your house and calmly ransack it, and as long as they don't threaten you directly, you can't do anything. Like you might as well just sit and watch TV while they go through your dresser drawers...

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Absolutely, positively agree with all of this... every single word. This is the Mad Mac I expect to hear.
    And that applies even if (maybe even especially if) you have one of the insurance backed/association backed/or other types of legal fund reimbursement programs.
    Every single bullet has a lawsuit attached to it. Fortunately, unlike modern cartridges, more of them are duds, squibs, and misfires... But each one, even the complete duds, will cost you more than you want to pay.Purchasing SD "insurance" is a bit like thinking your carry permit makes you a LEO or a superhero... Just as carrying a gun does not make you a member of the Justice League; having "insurance" does not guarantee that you will not suffer consequences if you use that gun when you shouldn't have.
    I know this is common thought, but I know of several SD shootings that haven't cost the shooter a single dime. I just wonder who started this train of thought and why?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  6. #35
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruark View Post
    That creates a really weird mental picture. That's saying somebody can just barge into your house and calmly ransack it, and as long as they don't threaten you directly, you can't do anything. Like you might as well just sit and watch TV while they go through your dresser drawers...
    I know, doesn't it? I can call 911, I can probably hold him at gunpoint since he's in the midst of a felony... If he walks out before the police come, I can be a good witness. I can use reasonable force to hold him... but I sure can't shoot him.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruark View Post
    That creates a really weird mental picture. That's saying somebody can just barge into your house and calmly ransack it, and as long as they don't threaten you directly, you can't do anything. Like you might as well just sit and watch TV while they go through your dresser drawers...
    I cannot speak for oakchas, but I understand his point perfectly.

    You are from Texas according to your avatar, and it's legal there to kill someone in defense of your property. As I understand it, Texas is the ONLY state that allows you to do so. I have a home in NC. Until yesterday, we had NO Castle Doctrine. We had a weird set of laws that specifically allowed you to use deadly force against someone trying to forcibly enter your home, yet once they were in, you have an obligation to prove you were in mortal danger from the invader. Weird - yes. Now we have a Castle Doctrine like most other states.

    That said, laws or not, my wife and I have discussed this at length, and we are not going to use deadly force to protect our property as long as we feel we can avoid an attack on our person. Even if we lived in Texas, my PERSONAL morality would not allow me to go out to my barn or garage and smoke someone who is stealing my car, tractor or a wheelbarrow. I feel the same way about my home possessions such as TVs, guitars, plate silver or anything else. I am not taking a life simply to protect insured items. I will go to my safe room (if possible), lock myself in, and call 911. I have chosen my choke points, and where I want to make a stand. If they attempt to breach that choke point, the lead will fly.

    Many here disagree with me. I'm a big boy, and am OK with that. I make my own personal risk decisions.

    The absolutely safest and least expensive course of action for me is to NOT draw my weapon unless I absolutely, positively have no other option.

    I got flamed pretty good in another thread where I saw an option to simply shut the door and lock it to avoid drawing on a teenager. I wasn't there, and perhaps this wasn't an option. I recognize that. However, if there is any other possible course of action other than drawing, I am going to seek it out. That's just me.

  8. #37
    Member Array Marty Hayes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I know this is common thought, but I know of several SD shootings that haven't cost the shooter a single dime. I just wonder who started this train of thought and why?
    Cases I have worked on over the last 10 years.

    #1 Woman is beated, bashed against the wall, unconscious. Comes to, boyfriend threated to kill her. She manages to get gun, and when he comes after her, she shoots him. He lives, tells a different story, she is prosecuted.

    #2 Man is involved in road rage incident. He in on phone to police, and follows suspect at a distance into Wal mart parkingn lot. Suspect gets out of car, still in full rage and comes towards man, (and his son). Man displays gun to stop threat, (find out later suspect is armed). Man is prosecuted.

    #3 Man is in own home, entertaining a couple of other guys, (not a gay thing) they are playing pool and drinking. Encoutner turns nasty, man tells guys to leave. Guys threated him instead, (remember pool cues) buy displays gun in his own home. Man is prosecuted.

    #4 Man is robbed in parking lot, head butted. He goes to knees, draws gun and shoot attacker reaching into his coat pocket. Man is prosecuted.

    #5 Man's home is burglarized, police do nothing. Man goes out into the neighborhood with gun to find the burglar and get his stuff back. Ends up finding man, is on phone to police when burglar charges at him. Man shoots burglar, burglar dies. Man is prosecuted.

    #6 Man sees wife in driveway being acosted and threated by neighbors. He intervenes to break up altercation, and in blindsided by 3rd guy, hit in temple with closed fist, almost knocked out. Pulls gun and shoots attacker. Man is prosecuted.


    I personally worked on the above cases of the last several years, and I don't even advertise my expert witness work! Yes, most cases of self-defense are not prosecuted, but many are.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Marty,

    What states were these incidents in? That makes a great deal of difference, and even the part of any particular state makes a difference.

    I never said that prosecution was a possibility, just asked who came up with the idea that every bullet will require X amount of funds to defend against it. The X has been anywhere from 10k, to 50k, depending on who it is coming from.

    The last incident that I know of, which happened 3 blocks from my house the only thing that came of it was that several cops told the shooter it might not be a bad idea to get his CHL permit. Oh, it cost him the gas to drive his own car to the police station to give a statement. Might have been a buck or two.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  10. #39
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I know this is common thought, but I know of several SD shootings that haven't cost the shooter a single dime. I just wonder who started this train of thought and why?
    Many SD shootings are justified. Many don't in fact, cost the shooter a dime. Y'all in Texas have some liberal (in a good way) laws re:Self Defense.

    However, we don't all live in the Republic of Texas. Many states don't have strong "castle doctrine" some have none at all.

    In Iowa, an attorney used the fact that the defendant in a civil suit used THE ULTIMATE weapon of mass destruction, a .357 MAGNUM, against him... and I can't recall whether he lost or not... But the fact that there was a civil suit at all, cost the shooter.

    Police on the scene are obviously the front line in whether or not the shooting was justified, and in most cases (but maybe not all) I think they're probably glad for a good SD shooting. DA's are the next line, some of them are overzealous.

    For example, in IOWA, a misdemeanor violation does NOT require intent. If you inadvertently break a misdemeanor law, you are guilty, period. Discharging a firearm in city limits is a misdemeanor. If you fire your weapon within the city limits you CAN BE charged with the crime... If you fired it in self defense, it doesn't matter... YOU still fired it within the city limits.

    The "compulsion law" in Iowa may save you from that... but only if you know about it... And if you don't know about it, your lawyer should... oops, now you've hired a lawyer... that is going to cost you something.

    Common suggested practice (since the publication of the very first mainstream book on SD; In The Gravest Extreme, by Massad Ayoob) in the aftermath of a SD shooting is:

    1) I'm the one who called, there's the guy who attacked me (he has a gun, knife, etc.)
    2) I will sign the complaint
    3) There's the evidence
    4) There are the witnesses
    5) I'll cooperate fully in 24 hours & after I've talked with my lawyer.

    line #5, last word = Cha Ching $$$...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  11. #40
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    Cases I have worked on over the last 10 years.

    #1 Woman is beated, bashed against the wall, unconscious. Comes to, boyfriend threated to kill her. She manages to get gun, and when he comes after her, she shoots him. He lives, tells a different story, she is prosecuted.

    #2 Man is involved in road rage incident. He in on phone to police, and follows suspect at a distance into Wal mart parkingn lot. Suspect gets out of car, still in full rage and comes towards man, (and his son). Man displays gun to stop threat, (find out later suspect is armed). Man is prosecuted.

    #3 Man is in own home, entertaining a couple of other guys, (not a gay thing) they are playing pool and drinking. Encoutner turns nasty, man tells guys to leave. Guys threated him instead, (remember pool cues) buy displays gun in his own home. Man is prosecuted.

    #4 Man is robbed in parking lot, head butted. He goes to knees, draws gun and shoot attacker reaching into his coat pocket. Man is prosecuted.

    #5 Man's home is burglarized, police do nothing. Man goes out into the neighborhood with gun to find the burglar and get his stuff back. Ends up finding man, is on phone to police when burglar charges at him. Man shoots burglar, burglar dies. Man is prosecuted.

    #6 Man sees wife in driveway being acosted and threated by neighbors. He intervenes to break up altercation, and in blindsided by 3rd guy, hit in temple with closed fist, almost knocked out. Pulls gun and shoots attacker. Man is prosecuted.


    I personally worked on the above cases of the last several years, and I don't even advertise my expert witness work! Yes, most cases of self-defense are not prosecuted, but many are.
    Interesting. Most of these look like violations of the Rule of Three Stupids. Let's take a look:

    #1 Domestic violence. Always dodgy. Your word against your boy/girlfriend. Guaranteed this wasn't the first time there was abuse. He said/she said. No one called cops. You use the word "threatened" in the past tense. My wife once threatened to personally neuter me. I decided to let her cool off. I decided not to kill her. Always choose you lovers with care. Also, consider that his side of the story is correct. Heck, I'm married to a redhead with a fiery temper. Just because she's a girl, don't assume she didn't go looking to shoot him.

    #2 What was this idiot thinking? Following a road rager? Call 911, and follow the FIDO principle. Mr Concerned Citizen was likely part of the escalation process. Why would he want to expose his son to a very angry person in order to follow the guy? Again, first and only one to introduce a gun to the encounter. He was in a car. Roll up the windows, lock doors, drive off. Stay safe.

    #3 You invited these bozos into your home? Everyone is drinking, you get out your gun to play tough guy. You are the only one to introduce a gun. Hell, I could use a lamp or a vase as a deadly weapon, but the jury sees you as the only loon with a gun. Should have left his own house and called 911. Case of really stupid "friends". [bu..bu..but they had POOL-CUES! Puh-leez.]

    #4 Would like to know more facts, but how do you get robbed with a head-butt?

    #5 The police actions are irrelevant. If you go looking for trouble, you're going to find it. This idiot did. I decided to pay for insurance rather than risk my neck playing a cop without pay.

    #6 Again, need more information, but how do you prove you were "almost knocked out". That's speculation. Acosted and threatened? You mean shouting and "I'll kick your butt" type of bravado? Walk away. Again, first and only guy to introduce a gun in what may have only been a verbal altercation, and one where walking away was most likely the best option.

    Dude, in all six of these cases, I only see one where I would feel the guy *may* be totally wronged, and I may be wrong on that score since I know only the few "facts" you stated.

    Following angry people, going out looking for burglars or other bad people (just get insurance), and being the first and only one to introduce a deadly weapon are all indications of very poor judgment.

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Mac, IINM, # 6 was videotaped by somebody while it was happening... The whole thing was weird, but I didn't see any reason to prosecute the homeowner... I think most of us saw this one on DC.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #42
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    If you have a SD shooting, and need a lawyer, you'll get one no matter how much money you have or don't have
    it's better to know that you have something so when/if it ever happens your covered.

    Every single bullet has a lawsuit attached to it. Fortunately, unlike modern cartridges, more of them are duds, squibs, and misfires... But each one, even the complete duds, will cost you more than you want to pay
    .

    correct me if I am wrong but homeowners should cover all of this as long as it is not intended target .as long as you get sued they should cover Damage to building, cars and other things

    Purchasing SD "insurance" is a bit like thinking your carry permit makes you a LEO or a superhero... Just as carrying a gun does not make you a member of the Justice League; having "insurance" does not guarantee that you will not suffer consequences if you use that gun when you shouldn't have.
    I don't believe that anyone thinks having SD insurance makes them any more superhero then having homeowner’s insurance makes they want to burn down their own house. We are just looking to protect what we have in case something does happen. Let’s face it insurance is a peace of mind and SD insurance is no different. Will it ever happen; I hope not but like have a loaded gun it is a tool for self defense

    good stuff guys, thanks to all for the input. we live in a world where we need to think about these things

  14. #43
    Member Array Marty Hayes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    marty,

    what states were these incidents in? That makes a great deal of difference, and even the part of any particular state makes a difference.
    .
    wa, or, az.
    Marty Hayes, President
    Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org

  15. #44
    Member Array Marty Hayes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    Dude, in all six of these cases, I only see one where I would feel the guy *may* be totally wronged, and I may be wrong on that score since I know only the few "facts" you stated.
    Not near enough time to go into the details of the cases, but the point I was trying, (perhaps not too successfully) is that legitimate self defense cases, at many times still are prosecuted. The simple, clear cut cases of self-defense or defense of others normally do not get prosecuted. But, there are many which are not simple nor clear cut. And, while the defender may have been justified, he still gets prosecuted. (Think Harold Fish).
    Marty Hayes, President
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Hayes View Post
    (Think Harold Fish).
    When you make a several hour, contradictory statement to the police, prosecutions tend to be as inevitable as 1 tequila, 2 tequila, 3 tequila, whore...

    Or was that floor...Eh. Either. Or. Both. Whatever.
    MadMac likes this.

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