What takes a BG down? - Page 2

What takes a BG down?

This is a discussion on What takes a BG down? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'd like to add that it is not likely that I would ever shoot just once. I always practice two and three shot bursts as ...

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Thread: What takes a BG down?

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    I'd like to add that it is not likely that I would ever shoot just once. I always practice two and three shot bursts as fast as I can pull the trigger. I think as others have said, shot placement and multiple shots is the only way to go. Although, with each shot, I want to displace as much body cavity as possible. 230-690 grains of lead takes up a decent amount of space.


  2. #17
    Member Array xeero's Avatar
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    To add to the 'two to the body and one to the head' notion, my handgun instructors suggest targeting the upper torso (particularly the sternum, which may shatter and cause further damage) then, if possible, crouch slightly to aim for the head at a slightly upward angle. In particular, aim for the area around the eyes and nose.

  3. #18
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    Same as hunting. I have put 180 gr HP into the heart of a deer. Actually destroyed the top of the heart, and broke a few ribs. That deer ran 60 yrds before dropping.
    Another deer I shot thru the front shoulder area and muscle. that deer dropped where it was an never tried to get up. People will react diffrently too. Till they bleed out and/or the brain stops working it isn't over.
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  4. #19
    Member Array NaturalSelection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    What makes the BG fall down when they get hit
    a properly placed bullet of adequate caliber will yield the best results. sure placement is important, but a shot from a .22 magnum to the exact same spot as a shot from a .357 magnum will not yield the same results. some will claim that "caliber doesnt matter, its all about placement" and to that i will respond with a direct FBI quote:

    "Shot placement is obviously critical, and our test criteria presume that the shot is placed in the
    vital area of the body which contains the brain, upper spinal cord, heart and aorta/vena cava.
    This area runs from just above the eyes to the diaphragm, and is about 4 inches wide. But, as
    our experience in Miami amply illustrates, shot placement is only the first part of the equation.
    Jerry Dove placed his shot perfectly. Bullet performance is critical to translate shot placement
    into an effective, incapacitating wound. If shot placement was all that mattered, we could arm
    all Agents with .22’s
    . Secondly, perfect shot placement may be difficult to attain in the stress
    and dynamics of a shooting incident. The larger calibers offer a “margin of error”"

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array JimmyC4's Avatar
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    Like KingAirDriver I couldn't resist humor either.

    What takes a BG down is when he steals a TV that's too much to carry! (rim shot followed by groans...)

    Timmy, you should be packing that Desert Eagle in .50 AE for that "one shot drop" capability.

    Having shot many deer, I continue to be amazed at how some shots drop them right in their tracks, and other shots that are similarly "well-placed" let them gallop for a hundred yards. I think shock and adrenaline are factors, and who knows how it will go.

    Granted, when you look at ballistics tables, the numbers are clear. But is that exactly the way it plays out on the street? I don't think so.
    Last edited by JimmyC4; August 16th, 2006 at 02:20 AM.

  6. #21
    Member Array PgSqlQuery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    It has been reported that on occasions a guy does not actually know he has been hit. Certainly adrenaline and, these days, being doped up could well do this.
    The first time I got shot, I had no idea.

    I wasn't high, tired, drunk, etc.... It didn't hit bone, or organs, just muscle.... And, it didn't hurt one bit.... until later....

    I was able to keep going, for quite some time. There is no doubt in my mind, that, being shot in an extremity (upper thigh, fairly center, just right of the bone...) I could have gone on to do several things:

    a) Pulled a trigger, repeatedly, if need be.
    b) Beaten someone with a blunt object, probably severely
    c) Gotten all stabby....
    d) Gone hand-to-hand for some time

    Shot placement is indeed important.
    Last edited by PgSqlQuery; August 16th, 2006 at 04:31 AM. Reason: Apparently, I'm incapable of typing... :)
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  7. #22
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    The only way I could see killing someone with "one shot" would be to either: a) obliterate the base of the brain or b) obliterate the heart; either one completely. So, unless they start filling hollow points with nitroglycerine (e.g. the stuff they make TNT out of) then it's not going to work. The idea of shooting the head is to place the shot at the top of the nose directly between the eyes.

    What this does (theoretically) is to severe the connection between the two hemispheres of the brain (the corpus callosum). The reason for severing this connection is to eliminate the ability to recognize an image and engage hand-eye coordination (right half of brain) and to actually move a body part like a hand or a finger (left half of brain). Given that it's usually about the width of your two thumbs put together and hidden behind bone and skin, good luck.

    If the heart was completely destroyed circulation would stop immediately and there would be no point of breathing. If the base of the brain were completely destroyed there would be no way for the brain to transmit the signal to do anything including beating of the heart or breathing.

    So, given concealment issues, calibers and everything else, the only hope that we have is to ventilate the BG in as many critical areas as possible until they stop and make sure the bullets go where they're supposed to. Either that or carry a grenade around with you and hope you have good cover. ;O)

    Cheers.
    Last edited by soundwave; August 16th, 2006 at 05:08 AM. Reason: bain = brain... damn i need spellcheck lol

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    What makes the BG fall down when they get hit?
    Most often, having seen too many Columbo reruns on television.
    Unless the bullet strikes the brain or heart and/or creates a devastating wound channel that creates immediate shock, there's no physiological reason why someone should be instantly incapacitated. We've simply been "taught" that being shot means you fall down. If you've ever seen a wild animal get shot off-target then you'll realize just how tenaciously an animal can cling to life in apparent full use of its motor skills and faculties. (Have seen videos of a lion being shot [on safari], and the damn thing swallowed off-target shots like couch potatos swallow Gummi Bears.) Humans are no exception, except by virtue of our "training" to fall/die when shot.

    I'm sure some LEO's or former LEO's will have some good input, on this question.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array ELCruisr's Avatar
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    Maybe the answer is this rig?

    http://www.andrewsleather.com/firepower.htm

    Just a bit hard to find a good cover garment in the FL summer heat! Sure would up the odds a bit more though....
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array randytulsa2's Avatar
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    There's been a LOT of work done on what stops people immediately. One site I recommend for a discussion of it is Evan Marshall's site, stoppingpower.org.

    I don't agree with all he has to say, and he has many detractors, but that'll get you started in your quest for knowledge.

    As far as I know, it's almost universal (from Marshall, to his arch-nemesis, Martin Fackler) that there is nothing except a shot that penetrates the cranium that is going to stop a BG with one shot, 100% of the time.

    12-ga. slugs and .308's to center mass come close (98 or 99% of the time) according to most sources (Marshall and Fackler would agree on that). But so would anyone who's ever seen what such rounds will do to deer or people (but a deer can run a LONG way even with a good shot to the heart).

    Those are hard items to conceal (12 ga. or .308) for most of us.

    The rest of the stopping power mystery is a mixture of shot placement, physiology of the target and psychology of the target.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    I am reading some armed citizen stories and I keep seeing things like " She said that she fired two shots, hitting the man at least one time in the stomach area.

    The man then ran out of the store and into the neighborhood behind the business."

    It does not say what kind of gun it was but if it was a .45 and he got hit in the stomach would he drop like a stone or still be able to run away? How about a .40, a 9MM or a .357?

    What makes the BG fall down when they get hit?? ( I have been eying that new .50 but it is to big to conceal)
    The $64 question. The "stopping power" myth. The timeless argument among all manner of gun enthusiasts.

    Let's get the easy one out of the way first - nothing you can shoot from a hand-held position will "knock down" the assailant. Newtonian physics dictate that such a weapon would simultaneously knock the shooter down as well.

    Making the assailant instantly fall down is another, much less simple discussion.

    Dr. Ken Newgard addressed the mechanisms of incapacitation in "The Physiological Effects of Handgun Bullets: The Mechanisms of Wounding and Incapacitation." Wound Ballistics Review, 1(3): 12-17; 1992.

    This article examines the physiological mechanisms of the human body to provide a medical answer to the question: How many times is it necessary to shoot an assailant before he is incapacitated?

    Newgard reviews the physiological mechanisms of gunshot wound trauma incapacitation:

    "The only method of reliably stopping a human with a handgun is to decrease the functioning capability of the central nervous system (CNS) and specifically, the brain and cervical spinal cord. There are two ways to accomplish this goal: 1) direct trauma to the CNS tissue resulting in tissue destruction and 2) lack of oxygen to the brain caused by bleeding and loss of blood pressure."

    Newgard discusses the body's blood loss sensory and compensatory mechanisms (venous constriction, increased cardiac output and vascular fluid transfer), and the degree in which these mechanisms respond to, and compensate for, hemorrhagic shock. He reviews clinical tests of human tolerance for blood loss, which "demonstrate that adequate blood pressure can be maintained with minimal symptoms until a 20% blood deficit was reached." Newgard provides the following example:

    "For an average 70 kg (155 lb.)* male the cardiac output will be 5.5 liters (~1.4 gallons) per minute. His blood volume will be 60 ml per kg (0.92 fl. oz. per lb.) or 4200 ml (~1.1 gallons). Assuming his cardiac output can double under stress (as his heart beats faster and with greater force). his aortic blood flow can reach 11 liters (~2.8 gallons) per minute. If one assumes a wound that totally severs the thoracic aorta, then it would take 4.6 seconds to lose 20% of his blood volume from one point of injury. This is the minimum time in which a person could lose 20% of his blood volume.... This analysis does not account for oxygen contained in the blood already perfusing the brain, that will keep the brain functioning for an even longer period of time.

    "Most wounds will not bleed at this rate because: 1) bullets usually do not transect (completely sever) blood vessels, 2) as blood pressure falls, the bleeding slows, 3) surrounding tissue acts as a barrier to blood loss, 4) the bullet may only penetrate smaller blood vessels, 5) bullets can disrupt tissue without hitting any major blood vessels resulting in a slow ooze rather than rapid bleeding, and 6) the above mentioned compensatory mechanisms."

    Newgard investigates the survival times of persons who received fatal gunshot wounds to determine if the person who was shot had enough time to shoot back. He concludes:

    "Instantaneous incapacitation is not possible with non central nervous system wounds and does not always occur with central nervous system wounds. The intrinsic physiologic compensatory mechanisms of humans makes it difficult to inhibit a determined, aggressive person's activities until he has lost enough blood to cause hemorrhagic shock. The body's compensatory mechanisms designed to save a person's life after sustaining a bleeding wound, allow a person to continue to be a threat after receiving an eventually fatal wound, thus necessitating more rounds being fired in order to incapacitate or stop the assailant."

    Source
    CNS disruption would seem to be a very reliable way to stop an assailant - if you can pull it off. The target areas are comparatively small and well protected by the structures of the body.

    Disrupting the cardiovascular system is easier in terms of shot placement, but it has a built-in time delay because the body is adept at compensating for blood loss. A real-life example:

    I ran a call many years ago for a shooting in an apartment complex. The police has initially been dispatched for the sound of shots, and after some searching, they located a victim and called for us. The victim was a healthy, athletic male in his 20s. He has been shot one time in the chest with a small caliber round (later determined to be a .25 ACP). He ran approximately 100-150 yards (IIRC) from the scene of the shooting to the foyer where he was eventually found. He displayed some cardiac electrical activity initially, but had no pulses. Despite aggressive resuscitation efforts, he never regained a pulse and was declared dead at the trauma center.

    Postmortem examination revealed that the bullet had passed through the lung, struck a rib on the rear wall of the chest, and then travelled forward, through the left ventricle of the heart. (The left ventricle is the chamber that pumps blood from the heart through the body). Even though this wound instantly reduced the heart's output by 90% or more, the victim was still able to run a significant distance.

    When the body loses circulation, several mechanisms kick in to preserve circulation to the vital organs (heart, lungs, and brain). If possible, the body increases the output of the heart. Blood vessels in the extremities constrict, re-directing more blood to the core of the body. Non vital organs temporarily shut down (like the digestive tract), making more blood and oxygen available for the heart, lungs and brain.

    Side note - when the person who has been shot collapses, they may regain some flow to the brain since less pressure is needed to get blood to the brain while the person is lying down. So sometimes down is not out.

    Another factor is psychology. Some shooting victims will collapse when shot because they think it is the right thing to do.

    All in all, the practical upshot, IMHO, is that having a single shot drop an assailant in their tracks will be the extremely rare result. It does not matter if you have the latest, greatest uber-canon round firing the most hyped high performance ammunition. The odds are overwhelmingly in favor of needing several rounds to stop the threat, and even then the assailant is not just going to fold up and collapse.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    As many here probably already know, a true sprint is an anaerobic exercise (basically put, doesn't require oxygen to perform) and is performed without breathing....
    As an aside, objectively speaking, performing true sprints is one of the most physically taxing exercises the human body can perform (squats included)....
    The point here is that continuing to perform physical acts post-wounding is not only possible, but also possibly common....
    As I have posted previously, the episode with the .22 to my left forearm was not noticed by myself for approximately 30-45 seconds... No pain, just the shock that the gun went off and thinking, "Holy Schnikey, where'd that round go?!?!"
    I have tried to prepare myself to fire until the threat stops and not after a predetermined number of shots....
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  13. #28
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    What takes the bad guy down? Inflicting damage to the point where he is no longer capable of fighting. This is true whether you are using a firearm, a knife, a club or your bare hands.

    Quote Originally Posted by randytulsa2 View Post
    The rest of the stopping power mystery is a mixture of shot placement, physiology of the target and psychology of the target.
    Truer words have never been spoken with regard to "stopping power."

    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen A. Camp
    I have seen folks "stopped" quickly with .45, 9mm, .38, and .357 magnum. I have seen folks not stopped quickly with the same rounds.
    I would add that I have seen folks "stopped" quickly with 5.56x45mm, 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm. I have seen folks not stopped quickly with the same rounds. No hand-held firearm guarantees instant incapacitation. Nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    CNS disruption would seem to be a very reliable way to stop an assailant - if you can pull it off. The target areas are comparatively small and well protected by the structures of the body.

    Disrupting the cardiovascular system is easier in terms of shot placement, but it has a built-in time delay because the body is adept at compensating for blood loss.
    Matt pretty much nailed it.

    I would add that it is entirely possible to inflict a non-survivable wound and not immediately incapacitate the threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Another factor is psychology. Some shooting victims will collapse when shot because they think it is the right thing to do.
    I believe this is one of the least understood/emphasized aspects. The psychological aspect is a critical component, both for good guys and bad guys.

    One needs only to read through Medal of Honor citations to see how well determined individuals can continue to fight despite grave or mortal wounds. Likewise, there are documented cases where an individual believed he had been shot and acted like he had been shot, when in reality he had not been shot at all. Other individiuals have allowed themselves to become incapacitated simply because their injury was inflicted by a firearm.

    When we discuss developing a proper mindset, a distasteful but mandatory part of the equation is recognizing that we could be severely injured/killed and commiting ourselves to finishing the fight regardless of the nature or extent of our injury. A good rule of thumb passed on to me years ago is that if you know you have been shot, it is a survivable wound.
    Last edited by Blackhawk6; August 16th, 2006 at 09:28 AM.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array gddyup's Avatar
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    What takes a BG down?

    His/her heart stops. When it finally stops, the BG is down for good.

    Firefighter/EMT
    "You've never lived until you've almost died. For those who fight for it, life has a flavor the protected will never know" - T.R.

    <----My LT was unhappy that I did not have my PASS-Tag at that fire. But I found the body so he said he would overlook it. :)

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array purple88yj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MNBurl View Post
    Head or hart or spine shots stop the bad guy!
    Not necessarily true. A freind of mine in Nevada is a cop. She was involved in a shooting during a felony stop. THe BG shot her in the heart (the right atrium to exact) with a .38 semi-wadcutter. The shot went just over her vest, and went clean through the heart. She shot and killed the BG using several rounds from her service weapon.

    Once the scene was quiet and emergency services were on there, that is when she realized that she didn't feel quite right. EMT's looked her over and found a bullet hole in her chest. They immediately took her to the hospital where the doctors found the bullet and repaired two holes in her heart. One in front, the other in back.

    Since it was a wadcutter (target) round, it punched a clean hole from entry of the chest to exit of the heart. The doctors explained to her in recovery that the right atrium has very little pressure or blood in it when in the relaxed condition, when the muscle contracted, the two holes would almost seal up only allowing a little blood to trickle out.

    Last I heard, she was still on the job.

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