What takes a BG down?

This is a discussion on What takes a BG down? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Even a CNS shot won't necessarily disable a person - there have been medical cases where the brain is penetrated by foreign objects and the ...

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Thread: What takes a BG down?

  1. #31
    Distinguished Member Array AutoFan's Avatar
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    Even a CNS shot won't necessarily disable a person - there have been medical cases where the brain is penetrated by foreign objects and the person not only lived but continued to function. The case that comes to mind is a railroad worker that had a metal rod blown through his skull by some sort of explosion. He was helped to the hospital by his coworkers (he could still stand and walk) where the doctors extracted the metal rod. It changed his personality permanently, but he lived many years afterward.

    Keep shooting until there is no longer the threat that started you shooting.

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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array INTJ's Avatar
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    Gravity..

    Okay, okay, okay. I tried to resist all morning and will try harder in the future not to be a comic.

    Serioulsy, how about a taser? Anybody experienced in using them to stop a focused, goal oriented BG and make him "go down" pretty quick.

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    Catastrophic damage= you put a good size hole in it and the hole doesn't seal up.

    1. Catastrophic blood pressure loss. Body parts/ brain doesn't get blood supplied, it won't function.

    2. Catastrophic CNS damage.

    3. Psychological will to continue to fight ends. They stop fighting and "give up". This can be pre-combative withdrawal/ surrender or after being shot.

    4. Chuck Norris.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    Even a CNS shot won't necessarily disable a person - there have been medical cases where the brain is penetrated by foreign objects and the person not only lived but continued to function. The case that comes to mind is a railroad worker that had a metal rod blown through his skull by some sort of explosion. He was helped to the hospital by his coworkers (he could still stand and walk) where the doctors extracted the metal rod. It changed his personality permanently, but he lived many years afterward.

    Keep shooting until there is no longer the threat that started you shooting.
    Absolutely correct - to effect an instant stop, you have to disrupt the "lizard brain", better known as the brainstem.

    It's not easy to do.

    Matt
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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array hsuCowboy98's Avatar
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    Wanna know what stops a BG?

    You do.

    Your bullets, hitting him, and hitting him till he stops.

    Never get into the mentality that a magic shot in one location or another is going to drop someone, just shoot till they stop.
    Fear No Evil.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy View Post
    " She said that she fired two shots, hitting the man at least one time in the stomach area.

    The man then ran out of the store and into the neighborhood behind the business."
    This scenario is actually pretty common, with knives, as well. Bottom line- most people are conditioned not to kill. They use the Holy Talisman, once, twice, and see what happens. Shooting/stabbing someone down indicates either high training, or decidely agressive mindset.

    As far as the BG, not many go down with one or two hits, anymore. The exceptions being: 1) the first time (they may be shot 5 times, but it is the first incident) they get shot, or 2) they are DRT.

    To answer your question: as stated- agressive mindset (yours) and shot placement.

  8. #37
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    Serioulsy, how about a taser? Anybody experienced in using them to stop a focused, goal oriented BG and make him "go down" pretty quick.
    When I went through taser training they showed a video of the guy who's the chief instructor in hand-to-hand for the Marine Corps. Tough dude, multiple wounds, combat vet, I would *not* want to take him on at close range with anything less than a 20mm cannon.

    They put a pistol a couple steps away and attached the taser leads to him. His only goal was to reach the pistol. He could not. He didn't go down, but it was all he could do to remain standing. When I got hit with the taser, I understood why. All your major muscles instantly lock. If I hadn't had two guys holding me up, I'd have gone straight down. My only goal was to make no noise, and I was focused on that. About 3 seconds into the 5 second ride, my diaphragm contracted and force the air out of my lungs, causing me to make a completely involuntary sound. This is the new taser technology that not only hurts but causes your muscles to contract 19 times per second. Did I mention it hurts?

    A lot of instances where multiple shocks are required are caused by someone just being too stubborn to quit fighting after the first 5 seconds. During those 5 seconds, you can't fight. One second later, you're fine. Someone too drunk or drugged or mad may not quit, not because the taser didn't work, but because it doesn't work permanently. Our officers are trained to get into cuffing/control position while the person is being tased so we can take advantage of their inability to move at that time. Of course, you run the risk of getting "in the circuit" yourself, but that's part of the job.

    Civilian tasers are designed to go for 30 seconds or so with a couple squeezes of the trigger. You're supposed to start the cycle, lay the taser down and use the time to get away. I personally have a problem with laying my $1200 taser down as a gift for the BG. I'd rather use OC or something more lethal that can't be used against someone else later.

  9. #38
    Member Array jwkimber45's Avatar
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    I'll throw my $.02 in the ring.

    #1 - Shot placement is critical CNS hits are the fastest way to put your assailant on the ground

    #2 - That being said, all bullets are not created equal. All things being equal, ie EXACT same shot placement. A bigger, better designed bullet will do more damage than a smaller bullet.

    #3 - I want all possible advantage on my side so I carry a .45
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Same as hunting. I have put 180 gr HP into the heart of a deer. Actually destroyed the top of the heart, and broke a few ribs. That deer ran 60 yrds before dropping.
    Another deer I shot thru the front shoulder area and muscle. that deer dropped where it was an never tried to get up. People will react diffrently too. Till they bleed out and/or the brain stops working it isn't over.
    Agreed; earlier poster mentioned something about hitting the sternum. Certainly, nothing especially deadly about that, but it'll cause the bullet to dump a load of energy, and you may get some secondary projectiles. Neither of those happen you go through muscle. I too, since I hunt near a river, prefer a shoulder shot on deer because I want to break him down. Shoulder is much larger than a spine/constantly moving head. Yeah, I know, apples to oranges, high power 3000 fps vs 800 fps; but I would think that if you hit something hard at the very least, it's going to hurt a lot more. That said, COM pretty much covers it .. just shoot till he ceases all felonious activity.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Excellent post, Matt!!!

    The size of a CNS hit on the human body is roughly the size of a hotdog and its bun. Stand two, end to end from the bottom of the ribcage to the top of the 2nd hotdog. That is, from what I gathered, to be the rough area to get a real chance for hit on the CNS.
    The other is a rough triangle with the base drawing a line across the perps eyeballs.
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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Doc Holliday's Avatar
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    Not all hits to the vitals are instantaneous stops! I don't like sharing this story because the animal suffered but I think it is relevant to the topic.

    I made the mistake of shooting deer once with a .223 round in the chest at about 60 yards. I was young, stupid, and has just gotten an AR-15. It was late in the deer season so I thought what the heck. I figured that if the .223 could stop a man, then it should stop a little Whitetail. I loaded the AR with CoreLockt softpoints from Remington. I put the bullet right into the heart/lung area the same way I had a few times before with my .3006. After the shot, the deer dropped like a ton of bricks. I remember thinking, Wow, the '06 didn't drop the others this quick. Suddenly the "dead" deer jumped up and ran away. I wasn't able to get a follow up shot. The bullet had broken the leg of the deer on the exit side. However it wasn't enough and I had to track the animal for thirty minutes to put it out of its misery. I still regret this to this day.

    Moral of the story is not to rely on ANY firearm to cause a one stop shot. Sometimes, even with a rifle you can have failures to stop or incapacitate. Train yourself so that if you are in this situation, you can continue to direct multiple hits to the vitals.
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  13. #42
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsuCowboy98 View Post
    Your bullets, hitting him, and hitting him till he stops. Never get into the mentality that a magic shot in one location or another is going to drop someone, just shoot till they stop.
    Yes. Recipe for coming out in one piece, physically if not financially/legally, as it becomes harder to explain 5-10 shots instead of one (to the sheep that will be judging your actions). All the more reason to become really competent with that sidearm.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  14. #43
    Senior Member Array hsuCowboy98's Avatar
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    as it becomes harder to explain 5-10 shots instead of one (to the sheep that will be judging your actions)

    It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
    Fear No Evil.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hsuCowboy98 View Post
    as it becomes harder to explain 5-10 shots instead of one (to the sheep that will be judging your actions)

    It is better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
    More reason, still.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  16. #45
    Senior Member Array hsuCowboy98's Avatar
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    If anyone is going to rely on a one shot stop, you will be dead in a firefight.

    This is why after training LEO's for decades to do the standard 2 shots on the range, and holster..they completely changed their mantra.

    The reason for this change is that there were several incidents in which officers were killed because they fired 2 shots, just like in training, and holstered their weapon. Same thing with putting empties in their pockets from their revolvers. They were trained on the range to put the empties in their pockets instead of on the ground, and when the S hit the F, they did the same thing instead of reloading, dying with fired brass in their pockets.

    That is why in our training today we teach to shoot until they stop. Thats why when I am on the range shooting falling targets, pepper poppers and reactive silhouettes I shoot until the threat is neutralized. I dont care if it takes 5-7 COM hits of if it takes 1-2 or 3-4 of the whole 13+1. If it means I get to go home to my family, and my dogs, then by all means that is what I will use, and I will worry about the ramifications of that in court.

    Just because you can stand there, and plug away at a paper target all day long, and never miss a bullseye, or that you can put shots in between the eyes of a target every time you pull the trigger while standing still on the range, dont fool yourself into thinking you can put one shot on a BG and have him go down. That mentality will get you injured or even killed in the real world.

    Accuracy on the range does not equate to being proficient with a handgun. I urge all of you to train yourselves to the maximum you can.

    There are very very very few one shot stops, and you need to be aware that one shot will most likely never stop a determined individual from killing you. If you fail to acknowledge this, the psychological impact of your failure to one shot stop him, or even a missed shot could cause a big enough lapse of effectiveness opening a window for the BG to get a jump on you.

    Be prepared to have to make mulitple hits on a BG to stop them.

    That is ultimately what will get you home that night.

    Last edited by hsuCowboy98; August 17th, 2006 at 10:53 AM. Reason: spelling
    Fear No Evil.

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