August 17th, 2006 11:06 AM
This is a question that can cause a lot of discussion. I don't think anybody really knows the answer other than the obvious direct hit in the hypothalamus by anything including a 22 drops the target right now.
Originally Posted by Timmy Jimmy
From everything I've read shot placement is more important than cartridge selection.
The second most important thing to realize, IMO, is there is "no" pistol cartridge that absolutely assures a one hit stop. There is at least one case on record of a guy who checked into an emergency room for treatment 3 days "after" getting hit by and carrying around 3 (three) 44magnum hollow point bullets (that stayed in his body). There are other cases of folks needing 6 or 8 hits by a 45 to be stopped. Lance Thomas, the LA watch store owner, frequently had to hit invaders to his store with 3 to 8 shots to get them to go down, even when he was shooting a 45. (If you haven't read about Lance Thomas, you have an entertaining read ahead of you.)
When I was picking a caliber as part of my research before I start carrying, I read all three of the "stopping power" books. Some background: I'm a retired Space Power Systems engineer, I'm used to data, lots of data. Of all that I've been able to find, those three books gave me the best understanding of what the incremental performance improvements might be related to cartridge and barrel length. I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the exact percentages - things within 5% of each other are effectively the same in this sort of subject.
Folks seem to love or hate Sanow, et. al. for what they wrote, and all the work they went to doing it, but their approach which balances actual shooting performance with laboratory test results is better than any other I've read about, at least an engineering sense. They also include several chapters by others on the FBI and INS testing that are quite informative.
That said, beyond ballistics, there are psychological and other factors including the effects of drugs that can have as much or more influence the attackers ability to do you harm as cartridge selection. The person shot may at some point die, but it may be after they have a chance to finish their attack.
You ask a good question, and while the answer is most likely an unknown confluence of factors, some of which may not even have been identified yet, it sure a learning experience to discuss it.
FWIW: After shooting everything and a variety of pistols, I ended up picking 9mm first, Glock 19 second (because, in order, it fit my hand the best, has a reputation for being as reliable as gravity, was pick-up and fire like a revolver, held at least 15 rounds, was a decent all around size and weight, and had a rail). I can shoot a 9mm significantly better than an S&W40 or a 45. By better I mean I can hit what I'm aiming at much better, much smaller groups, and make faster accurate shots with out much increase in group size at the combat ranges of significance (25 yards or less). In going for better shot placement (the most important factor) I was only giving up 2% to 4% in stopping power over a 40 or 45 so that is what I went with. I may at some point add a PM9 to the carry list, but for now I'm a one-gun guy. I've been training by firing about 200 rounds a week.
I really believe that shot placement is the most important part of stopping power, so I'm putting my time on improving my ability to do that.
August 17th, 2006 12:51 PM
By better I mean I can hit what I'm aiming at much better, much smaller groups, and make faster accurate shots with out much increase in group size at the combat ranges of significance (25 yards or less)
I don't think 25 yrds is combat range for a pistol. You'll be much better off spending your time [ the majority anyway ] at or under 30 feet with the pistols.
Practice one handed shooting a majority of time as well.
The mind is the limiting factor
Quick Kill Rifle and Pistol Instructor
August 17th, 2006 01:37 PM
2 to the chest & 1 to the head.any reasonable caliber should do.
August 17th, 2006 08:18 PM
I teach that there are 4 ways to physically stop a fight.
1. Disrupt the Respiratory system, keep oxygen from going to the brain and the body will shut down. This will also distract a person from their commitment to the fight. If someone can not breath, breathing becomes the most important thing to that person.
2. Disrupt the Circulatory system, keep blood from reach the vital organs and those organs shut down.
3. Disrupt the CNS, keep the brain from sending signals out to the body and the body can not respond.
4. Disrupt the body integrity. Make the skeletal system incapable of supporting the weight of the body or of being able to function at full range of motion.
With a gun there are no gurantees, the bullet may not penetrate to it's intended target due to cover, clothing, movement, or sheer chaos of life. Even head shots, heart penetration, and spinal cord disruption may not stop a bg if he's committed to the attack and already in motion. I.E. If I'm already commited to pulling the trigger flaccid parylisis may not stop me from completing that action. There are multitudes of cases of people taking ungodly amount of damage and still keep functioning.
The key to winning a fight (i'm convinced) is in having a dynamic situational awareness, acceptance of threat, and response drill that gets inside the BG's OODA loop and disrupts his momentum. Unexpected resistance, use of vocalization during the counterattack, proper escalation inside the force continuim all aide disrupting the OODA loop and this will more or less take away his motivation and break his commitment to the fight. There is no magic bullet, kick, punch, lock, throw, or word that will insure that a BG falls. You have to commit to the fight and maintain that commitment untill there is no remaining threat.
Hope this helps. Take care.
Last edited by kikr; August 20th, 2006 at 02:38 AM.
Reason: add content.
We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.
August 17th, 2006 08:40 PM
the article starts about 1/2 down the page here:
Originally Posted by Fitch
August 17th, 2006 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by steve_db
If no one has made a movie out of this .. they ought to! Probably wouldn't get it right though.
August 19th, 2006 08:25 PM
There is no magic caliber or magic bullet. i have seen a 22lr/25 acp do the job with one shot. i have seen a 357 and/or 45 acp not do the job. the one thing that i know is to have a gun with you when you need one, no matter the size.
August 20th, 2006 01:14 AM
Very clearly put KIKR. Lots of great posts here. This isn't new, but...
I try to simplify to three ideas in the order of ease and effectiveness. In a speed rock and stitch scenario, you start firing as soon as you clear on target and, threat focused, keep firing as you bring the gun to eye level. The transition from one hand point shooting to two hand sighted fire is generally at the last of a five shot string.
1. Muscular-skelatol: The large pelvic bones under any body armor are the largest target, the slowest to move, and will mechanically stop an advancing threat.
2. Cardio-vascular: The COM shots which naturally rise during the string will begin the delayed disability.
3. Nervous: The final sighted brain stem shots, at a small target between the ear lobes and bottom of the nose, are only possible after the threat's mobility has been severely degraded.
When you can execute while exploding laterally, go ahead and put on those cool sunglasses.
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
August 20th, 2006 10:18 PM
A bullet right between the eys ought to do the trick
"I'd rather have my gun and not need it, than need it and not have it"
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