Sure isn't adrenalin, that's for sure!
This is a discussion on What takes a BG down? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I am reading some armed citizen stories and I keep seeing things like " She said that she fired two shots, hitting the man at ...
I am reading some armed citizen stories and I keep seeing things like " She said that she fired two shots, hitting the man at least one time in the stomach area.
The man then ran out of the store and into the neighborhood behind the business."
It does not say what kind of gun it was but if it was a .45 and he got hit in the stomach would he drop like a stone or still be able to run away? How about a .40, a 9MM or a .357?
What makes the BG fall down when they get hit?? ( I have been eying that new .50 but it is to big to conceal)
If it is not in the US Constitution then the Federal Government should not be doing it.
"Carrying a gun is a social responsibility."
Sure isn't adrenalin, that's for sure!
It comes a time in your life when you run across someone you should have never @#$$% with. Allow me to introduce myself!
Walker, Texas Ranger. Sorry, I didn't have anything constructive to say...went with a joke instead!
Last edited by KingAirDriver; August 15th, 2006 at 10:22 PM. Reason: Had to find spiffy smiley!
There is no magic caliber or magic bullet from a handgun that will drop a BG like the movies. Reality is all about placement of the shot (or preferrably shots). Either a hit to the central nervous system or loss of blood resulting in unconciousness or shock. Another possibility is a broken major bone like a pelvis hit with enough energy for the job but I'm not so sure about the reality of that one. Drugs or insanity can really screw up things even worse. That's why a shotgun or rifle is a much better self defense choice, just much harder to conceal!
If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.
In pistol calibers, 38spl on up, a person is stopped because they DECIDE to stop, when not hit in the CNS.
There is no such thing as "shock" in handgun calibers, at least not to the point of incapacitation. When a person is jacked on adrenaline or drugs, he likely won't feel a gunshot wound. My hypothosis is that the more powerful a round, the greater the temp cavity. I don't believe the temp cavity in and of itself does much in the way of damage, but I also believe that it lets the person know he's been hit. Bleedout comes a bit later.
I carry something with capacity, good recovery speed, and high velocity (>1000fps) and figure it's good enough. Some opine that the velocity floor is around 800fps and I'm not inclined to argue.
This is why we keep shooting until the threat is gone.
Btw, there are, in fact, substantiated claims of people continuing to fight after taking COM hits from .50bmg's though they died later. Compare that cigar-sized round to what you put in your carry pistol. Makes you think.
So to answer your question, what stops people? A conscious or subconscious (fainting when gunfire is seen / heard) desire to stop, bleedout (after 15 seconds to a few minutes), or CNS damage. I know of no other mechanisms.
Cyanide tipped bullets might, but not right away. And speaking of "away", thats where they'll put you for a long time if you use them.
"You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone
The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.
Normally what causes a person drop, run, or what have you after being shot is where the round hits and if the hit is to the nervous system. So, bullet size does not matter it's about placement and the BG's ability to withstand the round. Just my2cents..
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
It has been reported that on occasions a guy does not actually know he has been hit. Certainly adrenaline and, these days, being doped up could well do this.
Unless damage is catastrophic such as CNS shutdown - the time taken for blood loss to slow a BG down can be quite lengthy - enough time for a guy to flee or keep throwing lead at you.
Thus our emphasis on placement and - shooting until the threat has ceased.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.
It's just a guess, but I think that there are few people in those stories that are armed with much more than a 9mm. A lot of videos seem to show snubby wheel guns and small autos. That suggests to me .38 and .380 since those are pretty darn popular among the general population. Besides, I think nonshooting people generally shy away from the larger calibers due to recoil and fear of the same.
A lot of people just have a gun for protection, but they never shoot. I think the smaller the caliber, the better the shot you have to be and most folks just don't practice. I don't mean any of this to start a war about calibers. I am speaking in extremely general terms.
That said I have complete confidence that my .45 will drop the biggest man shot anywhere in the chest/abdomen area. Whether that confidence is misplaced remains to be seen I suppose. I pray that I never find out for sure.
Last edited by lowflyer; August 15th, 2006 at 11:24 PM.
Hello. I have seen folks "stopped" quickly with .45, 9mm, .38, and .357 magnum. I have seen folks not stopped quickly with the same rounds.
Proper placement is necessary to make a BG quit because he physiologically has to rather than psychologically wants to.
Even with the "best" handgun calibers, there seems to be the "Dead Man's 10 Seconds", which I personally think is more like 15, in which he can still do ugly things...like press a trigger.
Several years ago two officers under my command had to shoot a felon. He was hit twice and almost simultaneously with a 12 ga using No. 4 buck at about 18" and squarely through the sternum and with a full-power 125-gr. 357 magnum through the neck. (I don't care for No. 4 Buck, but at that distance, it hardly matters. The neck shot managed to miss every single vital thing! Go figure!)
The felon looked at the shotgun-wielding officer and said something similar to, "I didn't think that you'd shoot me." He couldn't speak any longer due to "gurgling" and spitting up blood, BUT he looked behind himself, and leaned against a wall, slid down it, and sat down. He then lowered his head and died.
Later I learned that his toxicology report showed no drugs nor alcohol.
In any event, I sort of stopped worrying so much about this or that caliber...so long as it .38/9mm or larger and began focusing on being able to get the shots.
Go with that with which you can make the best shot(s) in the least amount of time in my opinion.
As far as what it feels like to get shot, the pain isn't really immediately apparent. The most people say it feels like is getting hit by a baseball bat (and at the velocities of bullets they're probably right). But shot placement is the best as if major areas of the body are hit it will incapacitate certain areas of the body, just not the whole thing.
Equate it with when someone has an appendage removed. If their leg is missing all-of-a-sudden, the person still feels that it's there and can stand on it. Once they do they -- of course -- fall right over. But the thing is that the person may not be mentally aware of what is incapacitated as long as the body responds like it should.
Profuse bleeding should also be helpful. If a vessel is cut (and is big enough) they should go into shock and become incapacitated. As I and everyone else has said, shot placement. ;O)
I've done a lot of research on the subject. I believe there is something to be learned from anecdotal data, gelatin testing and all of the other information out there. I've concluded that handguns aren't reliable at stopping people. To me, it's just that simple. The differences betweent he "stopping power" of any of the service calibers is negligible. Sometimes the most pathetic caliber stops a BG on the first round (or in a few cases when he wasn't even hit). Sometimes the "best" round doesn't work even after several solid hits. Rifles and shotguns are much more reliable stoppers. Unfortunately, we can't carry AR's and AK's in an IWB holster. Not that I've tried ;). So, we just carry a caliber/ammo combo that I have the MOST faith in. I don't have total confidence in ANY handgun stopping someone on the first shot.
Head or hart or spine shots stop the bad guy!
"If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking" - George S. Patton.
To my knowledge, there are 2 basic way to "drop" a BG in his tracks.
1. A direct hit to the central nervous system. This means a Brain shot (but it has to be a good brain shot, there are many reports of people being hit in the head and still fighting).
2. A shot that breaks the pelvis which is the skeletons weight bearing support. Break the pelvis and the body will drop, but, this too does not mean the BG will just give up. He still may fight. And, if he is holding a gun, he is still going to be anle to fire at you.
In reality, there are no magic calibers, or perfect shots that will 100% assure that a bad guy is going to go down when he is hit. It depends on so many things.
Rule of thumb is, shoot until the attack is stopped.
And MNBurl....I have read several storied of people being hit in the heart and still fighting for several seconds. The heart being hit does not mean instant death. The brain being deprived of oxygen end the attack but, a properly oxygenated brain can continue to function for up to 14 to 18 second after blood flow stops. Heart shots are not a 100% sure thing.
Last edited by TN_Mike; August 16th, 2006 at 12:11 AM. Reason: added text.
CNS is about it. To me the caliber is secondary to the mind set of the BG, one may fall over dead after getting hit in a non-life threating area with a .22 and another will fight to the end after several COM shot with a large caliber round. Nerves system is the only one shot stop but it is also the hardest to pull off, shoot until the threat stops.