is A North carolina State park posting a no firearms sign a violation of HB650

is A North carolina State park posting a no firearms sign a violation of HB650

This is a discussion on is A North carolina State park posting a no firearms sign a violation of HB650 within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have noticed all over the state of NC local governments are taking advantage of the loopholes in the HB650 legislation. But this is a ...

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Thread: is A North carolina State park posting a no firearms sign a violation of HB650

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    is A North carolina State park posting a no firearms sign a violation of HB650

    I have noticed all over the state of NC local governments are taking advantage of the loopholes in the HB650 legislation.

    But this is a new irritability that is bothering me

    the issue is: I noticed that a state park system has a sign at the entrance that reads" alcohol and firearms prohibited" Unless i read HB650 wrong, than this is a direct violation correct?


    I heard it indirectly from a park official that the sign is posted for those who do not know or who are not concealed permit holders to discourage them from bringing firearms onto the park
    I was also told indirectly that concealed permit holders should know that the sign does not reflect them since it is now legal to carry onto the park if you have a valid cwp.

    I have a big problem with this
    1. The new HB650 legislation also allows cwp holders from other states to be recognized in NC now, thus most cwp holders know if it is posted then its not legal, so someone from another state wouldnt know its legal for them and just not enter
    2. If you want to ban alcohol, than the sign should read only that" no alcohol"
    3. What the park officials are telling me indirectly, is a loophole method to keep as many firearms out of their park as possible, that is a lame excuse " the sign does not apply to cwp holders because they should know it does not apply to them"

    Anyways i have contacted the NRA-ILA, Nc grassroots, And the co sponsors of the bill with no replies.

    I joined this board to pass the message and im glad to be on this board.

    2nd amendment is a right


  2. #2
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    Things such as this will continue until challenged.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Zsnake's Avatar
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    There WAS such a sign in a park near my home in Virginia.

    I complained and they re-posted the sign with out the firearms being mentioned.

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    Member Array JaySkiBum's Avatar
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    I know in Maine there have always been signs in State and National (Acadia) parks saying that alcohol and firearms were prohibited, but with the new law only those who know about that law will know the firearms part isn't true.

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    Gunther71, I am required by your state to know your state's law on carrying my weapon. OC or CC, where alcohol is served, etc You must know mine. That just the way it is. When the TN law was amended to allow legal carry in our parks the park system was exempted from replacing their old signs (No Firearms Allowed, Alcohol, etc) because they lobbied that they didn't have the money to change signs. (Afterall, the legislature just cut their budget again) A bigger mess is the law allowed local governments to opt "out of the guns in parks law" but there is no specific requirement to post signage like a business. So you may know the law on state parks, but how do you know about local parks if it isn't posted? I can't be sure when I travel to another part of my own state!!!

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    If I'm traveling through States that reciprocate with Texas,It's my responsibility to know the carry laws of those States,It's not a big deal if I'm just passing through,but If I'm gonna be spending any time there,and or visiting any Touristy spots etc.,then I need to know where I can and cannot carry,and whether or not no gun signage applies to permit holders
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  7. #7
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    That's the whole point,
    If firearms are allowed with certain regs then do not post firearms not prohibited.

  8. #8
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    gunther71, I agree but that's not the reality in some instances. In Tn the pro's had to accept a compromise to get the "guns in parks" amendment passed. Hopefully they'll correct ti, especially the locals not having to post.

  9. #9
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    Like is said earlier, a state park is not the same as a city park
    here's the new law

    Any person who has a concealed handgun permit may carry a concealed handgun on the grounds or waters of a park within the State Parks System as defined in G.S. 113-44.9.


    This is not the same as the local parks law.
    you can read it here> http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/Sessions...PDF/H650v5.pdf

    So once again, i feel this is not legal, it is written in the bill, once again this is a state park not a local park
    Last edited by gunther71; December 12th, 2011 at 05:52 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #10
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    There was no compromise in the state park system, it was passed without amendments
    you are thinking about the local, city, county parks, this is a state park
    please google HB650

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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    They have them here, supposedly using the same logic.... and none of us like it either. IT's been brought up a lot and will continue to be until they either change the sign to read "unless person has a CC permit". For us, that applies even to state parks via the Ks statutes, and overrides any county, city, or townships.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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    Ex Member Array Yankeejib's Avatar
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    Sign, sign, everywhere a sign. My only concern in NC would be that signs carry a legal weight. In a real world where sane rational people administrate, enforce, and rule, a CC permit holder would be given due deference no matter what "jurisdiction" he/she happened upon. Why should a permit holder have three different standards depending on their presence on public/private/state/federal property? An all-encompassing rule would surely be appreciated, huh?
    You never see signs in Florida, because they're meaningless. I own a business in FL. I could post a hypothetical sign with any restriction "NO __________" (guns/shorts/hats/coolers/red hair...uhhh...impending lawsuit....etc.etc.). The only force of law is that I have the ability to ask someone to leave for any reason. If they don't, I can call the cops and trespass them, and if they persist, they can be arrested. Even though this process is a pain-in-the-A for all involved (me, the cops, and the jerk), it seems to work.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    The most likely issue is that they are old signs. The problem now is figuring out how to communicate the new law in sign form. If they are intentionally trying to circumvent the law by not addressing the issue, then that needs to be addressed. Maybe try some of you local legislators if they are pro 2A. Also contact the state park website. It's been a little over a week, so it may take some time to figure it out.

    For reference, all the trailheads in the Great Smoky Mtns. NP still have the old no guns sign. I just ignore them. I hope they eventually get them changed. But it's already been a couple years, so I'm not holding my breath.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  14. #14
    Member Array The Dark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gunther71 View Post
    2nd amendment is a right
    I know it's not the point of your post, so sorry now for any distraction - but had to say it:

    No, it is not. The 2A assumes the existence of that right and asserts that it "shall not be infringed". It is an important difference when it comes to that right.
    "To predict the behavior of ordinary people in advance, you only have to assume that they will always try to escape a disagreeable situation with the smallest possible expenditure of intelligence." Friedrich Nietzsche

  15. #15
    Ex Member Array gunther71's Avatar
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    more evidence

    You say they probably have not gotten around to changing the old signs to reflect the new laws.

    heres more proof>

    this is is copied from the Goose creek state park website under the tab firearms
    :Guns and Fireworks

    Firearms and other weapons are prohibited except that those with a proper permit may possess a concealed handgun in permitted areas and under the requirements of North Carolina G.S. 14-415.11. All firearms and weapons are prohibited in state park visitor centers and park offices. (EXCEPTION: Federal law (36 C.F.R. 327.13) prohibits loaded firearms or ammunition on those lands and waters at Falls Lake, Jordan Lake and Kerr Lake state recreation areas managed by the state parks system and owned by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.)

    Fireworks, cap pistols, air guns, bows and arrows, slingshots and lethal projectiles or missiles of any kind are prohibited on all properties managed by the N.C. Division of Parks and Recreation.


    So my concern is that they had time to change the rules of a concealed permit holder on the website, but still refused to pull a sign down.
    direct insult on HB650

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