Brandishing a weapon in self defense... - Page 2

Brandishing a weapon in self defense...

This is a discussion on Brandishing a weapon in self defense... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by FryDay I am wondering how legal brandishing or displaying a weapon in order to stop an attack is (even if you do ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FryDay View Post
    I am wondering how legal brandishing or displaying a weapon in order to stop an attack is (even if you do not feel your life is in danger. If someone came up to me unarmed but demanded my wallet, I am not sure I would feel like my life is in danger, but I certainly don't wish to give my hard earned money to a BG)

    In Wisconsin, the law states:
    “A person is privileged to threaten or intentionally use force against another for the
    purpose of preventing or terminating what the person reasonably believes to be an
    unlawful interference with his or her person by such other person.
    The actor may
    intentionally use only such force or threat thereof as the actor reasonably believes is
    necessary to prevent or terminate the interference. The actor may not intentionally use
    force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless the actor
    reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great
    bodily harm to himself or herself.” Wis. Stat. § 939.48(1)

    This sounds to me like my wallet example would be perfectly justified. Am I wrong?
    Do you really want to be a test case for this? The first thing you will have to answer is: "If you didn't feel your life was in danger, why did you escalate it into a deadly confrontation?"

    Only draw your weapon if you feel you life is in danger, and be prepared to use it. Hopefully the BG will have second thoughts and flee when you draw. If not he opened the game and has to live (or die) with his decision.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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  2. #17
    Member Array Marty Hayes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Can't hurt to speak to an attorney but I doubt if they can really make a difference unless their is a preponderence of case law that makes it very clear how a jurisdiction will handle imminent danger vs brandishing.
    Unless one either researches the case law himself, or asks an attorney to do so and render an opinion, one would not know.

    BTW, I address this issue, (in a general sense) in the following publication.

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ayes-SDLaw.pdf
    Marty Hayes, President
    Armed Citizens' Legal Defense Network, Inc.
    www.armedcitizensnetwork.org

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FryDay View Post
    I am wondering how legal brandishing or displaying a weapon in order to stop an attack is (even if you do not feel your life is in danger. If someone came up to me unarmed but demanded my wallet, I am not sure I would feel like my life is in danger, but I certainly don't wish to give my hard earned money to a BG)
    I believe the following answers your question.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NRA-ILA :: Wisconsin: Castle Doctrine Legislation Signed into Law!



    Wisconsin: Castle Doctrine Legislation Signed into Law!
    Thursday, December 08, 2011
    Yesterday, Governor Scott Walker signed into law important self-defense legislation for the citizens of Wisconsin. Commonly known as the “Castle Doctrine,” Assembly Bill 69 will provide essential protections for law-abiding citizens who defend themselves and their families from a criminal looking to do them harm. This new law took effect immediately.

    “Castle Doctrine” establishes the presumption that an individual who forcibly enters one’s home, business or occupied motor vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, and allows the use of force, including deadly force, against that person. This bill also eliminates any “duty to retreat” so that law-abiding citizens no longer must turn their back on a criminal and try to run when attacked.

    Finally, AB 69 provides that any person who uses force, authorized by law, shall not be prosecuted for using such force and also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them. In short, it restores rights to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors to focus on protecting victims.
    Please contact Governor Walker at govgeneral@wisconsin.gov to thank him for signing Assembly Bill 69 into law and the right to self-defense for Wisconsinites.



    -------
    -SIG , it's What's for Dinner-

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    "If I walk in the woods, I feel much more comfortable carrying a gun. What if you meet a bear in the woods that's going to attack you? You shoot it."
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  4. #19
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    OK, if you can, to me, the ultimate in handgun SD is this:

    1. You have good SA and you are aware that something might happen of a violent or criminal nature. You pocket your firearm in a loose jacket pocket, finger off the trigger but ready to fire through your pocket if necessary;

    2. You use strong verbal commands to halt the encounter, stop the threat, etc. and, as we know a -majority- of incidents have been resolved with the BG running off, you may find that even without showing, you can get this outcome.

    If the BG lunges, you're ready to shoot, or present your weapon and move off the 'X' and issue a verbal command. Likewise, if you've drawn and can conceal the firearm behind you (again practice so you don't sweep your own leg), that's another method. In order to prove brandishing, I'd think even a BG would have to see a weapon or identify it. Even if unholstered, if it's still concealed, I think you can skirt the issue of legality. (IANAL)

    We're not always going to be so well prepared, but having that 'back up' can give your words extra force - you're obviously not going to be timid and look like an easy target.

    Just an idea...

  5. #20
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    If anyone demands my wallet, I will say no while gripping my gun. If they press me, I will pull it and be prepared to use it. I consider attempted robbery an aggressive act.

  6. #21
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    This is a perennial catch-22. If the BG isn't displaying a weapon or pointing one at you, it may be legally difficult to justify drawing/brandishing your gun. On the other hand, if you wait until there IS a clear threat, i.e., until he draws a gun and points it at you, it's probably too late for you to do anything. I think this hypothetical situation could be a good topic for discussion.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Hey Marty Hayes: It still comes down to a possible arrest and a possible trial and any evidence (witnesses) that are brought into the case, including the arresting officer, who has considerable weight in the case. It is such a fine line between protecting yourself as a reasonable person who believes he is in imminent danger from death or great bodily injury, and a person who either is very "skittish" about their surroundings or truly believes he has the right to "menace" without any real imminent danger present. Can't hurt to speak to an attorney but I doubt if they can really make a difference unless their is a preponderence of case law that makes it very clear how a jurisdiction will handle imminent danger vs brandishing.
    Best answer. If that/your consulted attorney says he will guaratee no prosecution and defend you if needed.
    In Indianapolis: FYI when witnesses around most are witness after incident, fear of guns they will likely tell police you pointed gun and you be arrested. When several witnesses are in your group they know what occurred and you likely not arrested. Indiana cities citizens on a jury at least half jurors or more believe gun owner guilty till he proves innocense. Sorry but it is fact jurys dont follow instuctions they have preconceivced beliefs and baises. In rural areas this not a big bias.

    If just one on one robbery, Law abiding citizen should be no problem 99% of time. he said she said situation.
    Last edited by Granddad; December 15th, 2011 at 08:04 PM. Reason: correct type errors

  8. #23
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    Saw post above regarding Castle Doctrine. It is just on your property. My post number 22 is for away from home when threated or robbed.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Stop in at a hamburger joint we go to with my grandkids. Just after I get out of the car, a guy walking across the lot says, "hey man , could you help me out and give me some money" , as he turns and starts to proceed toward me. I told him "no, and leave us alone". He continued to slowly approach and getting more demanding about giving him some money. I told him "NO, now get lost and leave us alone".

    He got mad...... then turned it into an attempted robbery.... "man, you ARE going to GIVE ME YOUR MONEY, whether you like it or not" ... " now give me your money man", as he was began reaching into his front right pocket. His pants were tight and I could see the outline of the knife he was attempting to get out of his pocket..... as he continued then to threaten me .... "you WILL give me your money OR ELSE " .....

    I took stance, put my hand under my shirt on my gun, and strongly suggested he stop right there and NOT take another step... and that it was really best for him to turn around and leave..... and sternly told him to keep his hand in his pocket as he walked away and NOT to be pulling anything out of it, or he would have a very bad day. No gun was displayed, never told him I had one or not, and never threatened to shoot him.

    He stopped, looked at my hand, looked me in the eyes a few seconds..... then turned slowly and left as he was cussing and calling me every name in the book. He was smart enough... the whole time he was walking away that hand never came out of his pocket.

    That's what I did. He never knew , nor anyone else, whether I really had a gun there or not. I think when he looked me in the eye, he saw determination and that I was totally serious, and didn't want to find out.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by FryDay View Post
    I said fear for my life. Getting the crap kicked out of me probably wont kill me...
    "probably wont kill me"? Not long ago a man I was aquainted with in my town died from a single blow from another man's fist. He fell, struck his head on a curb. Dead at the scene. A few weeks later, another man died in a fistfight outside a nightclub here. Some years ago another friend got into a fistfight and ended up in the hospital for a couple weeks, couldn't work for almost a year, and his face will never look the same.

    Another thing to consider, if you are carrying a gun and get into a fight, your opponent might find it, take it away from you and use it against you, or you could simply lose it during the scuffle.

    If someone wants to fight me, I would just walk, or run away. I would never "brandish" my weapon to try and prevent a fight. The only time my weapon would come out is if I was in fear for my life, and in that case, I would be ready to use it. If the BG decides to stop his threat, great, I don't want to shoot anybody.
    How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual; as a trustworthy & productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised and taken care of.
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  11. #26
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    You don't draw because you're worried about getting your behind kicked. You draw because you're concerned that something worse may happen.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array IAm_Not_Lost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm View Post
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    You don't draw because you're worried about getting your behind kicked. You draw because you're concerned that something worse may happen.
    True story.
    The bottom line with any "brandishing" law is that A) You believe your life is in imminent danger, and B) drawing your weapon may prevent the situation from going any farther. This law isn't so that anyone can just draw when they like, it's a common sense law that fills in the gaps of a self defense encounter. Period.
    "Brilliant. So now we got a huge guy theory, and a serial crusher theory. Top notch. What's your name?" - Paul Smecker

  13. #28
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    I thought we just had a three or four page discussion, just last week, on this very thing
    “I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry.”
    - Barack Obama Chicago Tribune, April 27, 2004

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKsrule View Post
    I believe the following answers your question.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NRA-ILA :: Wisconsin: Castle Doctrine Legislation Signed into Law!




    And how does the Castle Doctrine address either brandishing or the scenario he offered?

  15. #30
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    Hey CAS: Your comment about the BG going to get a bigger badder gun if you brandish is exactly what happened last xmas eve in Bluffton, SC (it has been discussed in this forum several times). Brandisher was eventually killed by a cretin tow truck operator who had booted his car. Tow truck operator now up on manslaughter charges although his last shot was literally an execution. You brandish your gun, expect the other guy to accept this as imminent danger--"what is good for the goose is good for the gander"-imminent danger works both ways.
    PS: Hey Tally: So you take the time to comment on something you do not want to comment on anymore because it has been commented on before. Why?

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