Tennessee - Confused about State Park Carry (Norris Dam)

This is a discussion on Tennessee - Confused about State Park Carry (Norris Dam) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Agave The law requires that if a local gov't bans guns in their parks that they put up a 1311 sign. However, ...

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Thread: Tennessee - Confused about State Park Carry (Norris Dam)

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array jem102's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agave View Post
    The law requires that if a local gov't bans guns in their parks that they put up a 1311 sign. However, the law does not protect anyone if they fail to put up a sign. In essence, the 1311 sign means nothing.
    I see where you are coming from and agree.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array GoBigOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pfries View Post
    Norris Dam is actualy TVA and they can post, it is federal US Army Corps of Engineers owned and leased by TVA off limits to my understanding.
    This is incorrect. Norris state park is a STATE PARK. It is not owned by TVA. You can carry there without issue. However TVA property is a gray area regarding the laws.

    I have carried in and around Norris Dam without issue. And I was openly carrying.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoBigOrange View Post
    This is incorrect. Norris state park is a STATE PARK. It is not owned by TVA. You can carry there without issue. However TVA property is a gray area regarding the laws.

    I have carried in and around Norris Dam without issue. And I was openly carrying.
    This entire topic is making my head spin. Seriously.

    Norris Dam is indeed a State Park. Rule #2 on their signs say, "No Fireworks or Firearms."

    So which of the following is correct?

    1. It's ILLEGAL to carry because it's posted "No Firearms."

    2. It's now LEGAL, as of a couple of years ago, but they just haven't updated their signs due to budgetary issues.

    3. It's normally LEGAL to carry in State Parks, but Norris Dam is ILLEGAL because it's TVA owned/leased.

    4. The bulk of the park is LEGAL for carry, but near the dam is ILLEGAL because of TVA.

    Sheesh. Now my head is spinning even more.
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  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    So which of the following is correct?

    1. It's ILLEGAL to carry because it's posted "No Firearms."

    2. It's now LEGAL, as of a couple of years ago, but they just haven't updated their signs due to budgetary issues.
    1. Signs don't apply in parks to permit holders. "No firearms" signs never apply anywhere in the state.
    2. It is legal to carry in Tennessee state parks.


    3. I know not if TVA has anything to do with it or even if it's unlawful to carry on TVA property; however, I will venture to say that it is not unlawful to carry. Federal law prohibits carrying firearms into a "federal facility" which is defined as a building or part thereof owned or leased by the federal government where federal employees work; as well as federal courthouses.

    Someone please cite a federal law that prohibits carrying a gun on federally owned property. If one exists, I'd like to know about it.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array GoBigOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    This entire topic is making my head spin. Seriously.

    Norris Dam is indeed a State Park. Rule #2 on their signs say, "No Fireworks or Firearms."

    So which of the following is correct?

    1. It's ILLEGAL to carry because it's posted "No Firearms."

    2. It's now LEGAL, as of a couple of years ago, but they just haven't updated their signs due to budgetary issues.

    3. It's normally LEGAL to carry in State Parks, but Norris Dam is ILLEGAL because it's TVA owned/leased.

    4. The bulk of the park is LEGAL for carry, but near the dam is ILLEGAL because of TVA.

    Sheesh. Now my head is spinning even more.
    I think #2 is the most accurate. As long as you don't go try to bust into the control room of the dam no one is going to bother you.
    Carry your gun, stay safe, enjoy the beautiful views.

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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Thanks, guys. We're almost there..... I think what I'm really looking for is an "official" ruling that the signs don't apply to permit holders. I don't mean to be a pain, but just trying to be sure.

    Does anyone have a source on this?
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    Thanks, guys. We're almost there..... I think what I'm really looking for is an "official" ruling that the signs don't apply to permit holders. I don't mean to be a pain, but just trying to be sure.

    Does anyone have a source on this?
    TCA 39-17-1311 (paraphrased)
    (a) It is an offense for a person to carry any weapon in any public park.
    (b) Subsection (a) doesn't apply to (H) persons with carry permits except as otherwise provided by subsection (d).
    (c) The local gov'ts must put up signs that say that it is prohibited to carry a gun in a park. (quoted) MISDEMEANOR. STATE LAW PRESCRIBES A MAXIMUM PENALTY OF ELEVEN (11) MONTHS AND TWENTY-NINE (29) DAYS AND A FINE NOT TO EXCEED TWO THOUSAND FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS ($2,500) FOR CARRYING WEAPONS ON OR IN PUBLIC RECREATIONAL PROPERTY.
    (d) Local gov'ts may vote to prohibit permit holders from carrying guns in their parks.
    (e) If local gov'ts vote to prohibit guns in their parks, they must refer to subsection (c).

    TCA 39-17-1359 (paraphrased)
    (a) Any person or entity may prohibit a person with a carry permit from carrying a gun onto the property controlled by said person or entity.
    (b) In order to enforce this, a legal form of notice must be provided. (1359 sign and/or Gunbuster)
    (f) (quoted) This section shall not apply to the grounds of any public park, natural area, historic park, nature trail, campground, forest, greenway, waterway or other similar public place that is owned or operated by the state, a county, a municipality or instrumentality thereof. The carrying of firearms in those areas shall be governed by 39-17-1311.

    What questions do you have?
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

    NRA Certified Pistol Instructor, Tennessee Certified Instructor

  9. #23
    Member Array pfries's Avatar
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    TVA: Norris Reservoir

    TVA is still able to limit carry, as the rules read now you cannot carry on developed lands. To the best of my knowledge this has not changed since TFA touched with them on the subjec in October of last year. Link to very limited high lights below. I will try and find the email corispondance to post as well.

    http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-i...ontacts-needed

    "With title 70 being amended and allowing carry on TWRA lands is was thought that boat ramps would also be allowed as well. According to TWRA law enforcement it is ok but beware. TVA does not allow it even though TWRA does. If you are at a TVA boat dock (even if it is posted with a TWRA sign) with your carry gun you can be fined, your firearm confiscated and they can also take your truck and boat. More on this later. Following are TVA regs."

    "Officer Jack Paul asked me to respond directly to you about your questions regarding possession of firearms on TVA land.

    Possession of firearms for lawful purposes generally is allowed on undeveloped TVA recreation land. Possession of firearms generally is not allowed on developed TVA property such as TVA dam reservations, campgrounds, picnic pavilions, day use areas, and boat ramps, except that firearms usually may be possessed at TVA campgrounds and boat ramps if the possession is associated with an in-season hunting excursion and the firearms are unloaded and properly cased. In specific situations, TVA land may be posted with signs about whether possession of firearms is allowed.

    TVA has established these policies in accordance with its authority under the TVA Act to manage the land under its custody and control.
    There are no published regulations on the subject. Rather, TVA implements these policies through internal TVA management guidelines and appropriate signage. TVA likely would consider it to be a trespass if someone were to carry a firearm on TVA property in violation of a posted TVA sign or contrary to direction from a TVA Police Officer or land manager.

    Mark Hastings
    Senior Attorney"

    See page 35 on link
    http://www.tva.gov/foia/pdf/code_of_conduct.pdf
    Last edited by pfries; December 22nd, 2011 at 06:18 AM.
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  10. #24
    Member Array pfries's Avatar
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    327.13 Explosives, firearms, other weapons and fireworks.
    (a) The possession of loaded firearms, ammunition, loaded projectile firing devices, bows and arrows, crossbows, or other weapons is prohibited unless:

    (1) In the possession of a Federal, state or local law enforcement officer;

    (2) Being used for hunting or fishing as permitted under 327.8, with devices being unloaded when transported to, from or between hunting and fishing sites;

    (3) Being used at authorized shooting ranges; or

    (4) Written permission has been received from the District Commander.

    (b) Possession of explosives or explosive devices of any kind, including fireworks or other pyrotechnics, is prohibited unless written permission has been received from the District Commander.

    Letter in ref. to law changes for USACE held properties


    February 22, 2010
    New Federal Law Pertaining To Firearms on National Park/National Wildlife Service Lands Is Not Applicable at USACE Projects and Facilities
    All -- a new law regarding firearms on some specific federal properties takes effect next week. This is not new information for us, and we have been reviewing it for quite a while. Counsel has been fully engaged. We offer the following guidance:
    1. Section 512 of the Credit Card Act of 2009 (Public Law 111-024) pertains to possession of firearms and allows an individual to possess an assembled or functional firearm in any unit of the National Park Service or National Wildlife Refuge System provided that the individual is not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing the firearm and the possession is in compliance with the law of the State in which the National Park/Refuge is located. This law becomes effective on 22 February 2010 on property under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service or the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.
    2. Public Law 111-024 does not apply to Corps projects or facilities. The passage of this new law does not affect application of Title 36 regulations (36 C.F.R., Chapter III, Part 327, Rules and Regulations Governing Public Use of COE Water Resources Development Projects). 36 C.F.R. 327.13(a) prohibits the possession of loaded firearms or ammunition on lands and waters administered by the Corps unless one of the exceptions in 36 C.F.R. 327.13(a)(1)-(4) applies. The full text of 36 C.F.R. can be viewed on the NRM Gateway at: http://corpslakes.usace.army.mil/emp...fs/title36.pdf.
    3. 36 C.F.R. 327.13 remains in full force and effect. It will continue to prohibit loaded concealed weapons on Corps properties regardless of the new law and notwithstanding any contrary provisions of State law. It remains Corps policy that we will not honor State-issued concealed weapon permits on our facilities and that District Commanders do not have discretion under 36 C.F.R. 327.13(a)(4) to create blanket exceptions to this policy. A change of this nature to Corps regulations in 36 C.F.R. Part 327 would require formal rulemaking procedures under the Administrative Procedures Act (5 U.S.C. 551-706).
    4. It is incumbent upon us to communicate and reinforce our firearms regulation with our visitors and partners, which may include posting park entrances with No Firearms signs IAW the Corps sign manual (EP 310-1-6a and EP 310-1-6b) and taking other actions deemed necessary by Operations Project Managers as coordinated appropriately with other Corps elements. Information related to this matter will also be posted for public awareness on the NRM Gateway.
    5. HQUSACE POCs for this matter are Stephen Austin, Natural Resources Manager, Operations (for Visitor Assistance policy and program administration information), 202-761-4489, stephen.b.austin@usace.army.mil; and Milt Boyd, Assistant Counsel, Office of Chief Counsel (for regulatory questions on federal lands) at 202-761-8546, Milton.W.Boyd@usace.army.mil.
    Provided for your attention and appropriate action.
    Michael G. Ensch, SES



    Last edited by pfries; December 22nd, 2011 at 06:19 AM.
    Mors est libertas


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