Loaded CCW Guns in Safe: Safety Question ?

This is a discussion on Loaded CCW Guns in Safe: Safety Question ? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ksholder Post #9 got me thinking. In a revolver, all rounds are contained in the cylinder. In an auto loader, only the ...

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Thread: Loaded CCW Guns in Safe: Safety Question ?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Post #9 got me thinking. In a revolver, all rounds are contained in the cylinder. In an auto loader, only the chambered round is so contained. Does this make a cooking off revolver more dangereous and likely to self destruct? I would assume that the bullets hitting the frame would do more damage than the bullets cooking off in a mag, although the handle of the autoloader could get some damage. Interesting to ponder.
    Every gun I've seen that was in a fire was ruined anyway. I've never seen a fire that got just hot enough to cook off a primer but no hotter.

    I did see one shotgun that was in a fire safe that survived a fire with no damage, but the plastic shells got soft and the mag spring compressed them into a stack inside the mag tube. They got mashed, then cooled into a sculpture but they didn't go off. I kept that as a souvenir for a while.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walleye View Post
    I edited my OP to make clear that 3 of my guns are loaded with one in chamber - two are revolvers, one a Beretta I leave with one in the pipe and safety on.

    That was why I asked the question
    At the risk of taking this thread tangentially off the "safe/guns/ammo in a fire" topic, I have to ask the OP if he holsters his guns while they're in the safe. Since he stores them in "(semi-)Condition 1", i.e. chambered, safety on; I was wondering if they're holstered with the triggers guarded.
    “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

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  4. #18
    Member Array Eaglebeak's Avatar
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    As Superhouse15 mentioned, I'm not sure that ammo in an actual "fire safe" would ever get hot enough to self-combust in even the hottest of most house fires. A fire safe is designed with a media between the inner and outer walls that not only provides an insulation barrier, but also slowly releases moisture as heat intensifies.

    Generally any safe (gun or otherwise) the claims to be a "fire safe" has a specified "hour rating" at which it will keep the internal contents below a temperature of 350 degrees/F under a fixed outside test oven temperature of around 1800 degrees/F. 350 degrees is the target temperature because paper (and money) will begin to char at around 380 degrees/F.

    So, while plastic shotgun shell cases and composite stocks may begin melting at 350 degrees, I think the autoignition point of primers or gunpowder is much higher than that - which would probably not see any rounds cooking off in a fire safe during most house fires.

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    At the risk of taking this thread tangentially off the "safe/guns/ammo in a fire" topic, I have to ask the OP if he holsters his guns while they're in the safe. Since he stores them in "(semi-)Condition 1", i.e. chambered, safety on; I was wondering if they're holstered with the triggers guarded.
    Why would you need to guard the triggers? The trigger guard prevents a person from contacting the trigger accidentally. The safe preforms the same function does it not?

    Michael

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Post #9 got me thinking. In a revolver, all rounds are contained in the cylinder. In an auto loader, only the chambered round is so contained. Does this make a cooking off revolver more dangereous and likely to self destruct? I would assume that the bullets hitting the frame would do more damage than the bullets cooking off in a mag, although the handle of the autoloader could get some damage. Interesting to ponder.
    That's a good question.

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diddle View Post
    Do you store ammo in your safe? In theory it would cook off slightly faster than ammo in a firearm since the firearm would act as a heatsink reguiring more time for the ammo to heat up. Lighter duty safes often have plywood or composite (which is better) material between the metal. Heavy duty safes often ues these materials in addition to concrete. Some have a ball bearing plate to prevent (resist) drilling.

    If for nothing but you own edification why not call Sentry and inquire? I'd be interested in their reply.
    Good idea, I will. The Mythbusters epsisode on this question using an oven found only chambered round went off as they would if fired. Loose rounds (and I assume boxed rounds) blew up like firecrackers without penetration through the stove's "window". The explanation was that loose rounds do not have DIRECTED FORCE like a chambered round, but force in every direction so it dissipates harmlessly. Interesting video: subject is storing ammo in a stove (!) but part of it is relevant for safes:

    Mythbusters - Bullets exploding inside an oven - YouTube

  8. #22
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    At the risk of taking this thread tangentially off the "safe/guns/ammo in a fire" topic, I have to ask the OP if he holsters his guns while they're in the safe. Since he stores them in "(semi-)Condition 1", i.e. chambered, safety on; I was wondering if they're holstered with the triggers guarded.
    Both snub revolvers are, the Beretta 92FS is stored with the safety on, no holster, (too big for the shelf).

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Why would you need to guard the triggers? The trigger guard prevents a person from contacting the trigger accidentally. The safe preforms the same function does it not?

    Michael
    I assume poster means when getting a gun from a safe that's loaded & chambered, you won't accidentally contact the trigger, or brush against another loaded etc. gun's trigger. Thinks that's the point - a good one - especially if you were going for one in the dark in an emergency using just a flashlight (I have a flaslight that sits on my safe).

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diddle View Post
    That is a good looking little safe!
    Thanks I installed 4 screws thru the back cover the same spacing as my belt so holster does not move up or down and held with wing nuts. Last night i needed my OWB so I spun off the nuts and straps it on. Came home and placed whole rig on the screws and put nuts on. Done.

  11. #25
    Member Array Speculator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelhawk View Post
    Walleye, like you, for safety's sake, I don't keep one in the chamber on the night stand. I do keep it with a full magazine inserted, and in a holster on the night stand. I keep the ones in the safe in the same condition. Loaded mags, but not one in the chamber.

    If someone provided me a solid reason to keep them loaded, I would reconsider my storage method.
    I think having your handgun on the nightstand is a bad idea AND having it on the nightstand unracked (chamber empty) is also a bad idea.

    Here are two scenarios:
    1. Bad guy comes into bedroom, sees your gun and is now armed. Hopefully you have layered security, alarms, dog, locked bedroom door, etc, but still if he gets in he could now be armed with your gun. Remember the BG is amped up. You are asleep or groggy;
    2. Bad guy is coming at you and you grab handgun and squeeze trigger and it goes 'click'. In your groggy state you forgot you had to rack the slide. BUT, if you remembered, you have lost precious seconds as he lunges and you don't get the shot off.

    SO...if you are using the handgun on the table as a form of quick self-defense, you have essentially neutralized your intent OR worse, having it in the open you have aided the bad guy.

    I'd suggest another storage location that is not immediately visible to a stranger, but available to you AND I'd suggest you have the gun in condition 1 just like it would be if you were carrying, because your 'memory' will be that condition you normally keep it, presuming you carry chambered. It's a bad idea to deviate from your normal mode because in the stress of a fight you forget that which you probably haven't practiced.

    HTH

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Why would you need to guard the triggers? The trigger guard prevents a person from contacting the trigger accidentally. The safe preforms the same function does it not?

    Michael
    Was that sarcasm or do you Mexican carry?
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  13. #27
    Member Array Doubledown's Avatar
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    I think he was referring to the OP with the guns stored inside a locked safe, not carried. I agree inside a safe there is no need to holster unless that is how you prefer to keep them together.

  14. #28
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    Not much of a reason to be near a gun safe in a fire that is hot enough to cook off a chambered round inside a safe. I figure you would have a much, much higher change of death or injury from the fire/smoke than an unlikely and randomly pointed handgun round. I am not saying it's not possible, but highly unlikely. Nothing to lose sleep over.

  15. #29
    Ex Member Array walleye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Napolean View Post
    Not much of a reason to be near a gun safe in a fire that is hot enough to cook off a chambered round inside a safe. I figure you would have a much, much higher change of death or injury from the fire/smoke than an unlikely and randomly pointed handgun round. I am not saying it's not possible, but highly unlikely. Nothing to lose sleep over.
    I was thinking more of firemen. But if it's more than 250 or 350 degrees to start propellant exploding, nobody including firemen are going to be in the safe's or room's vicinity. At that temp YOU'D ignite.

    And I think you're right, the likelihood of a gun accident inside and through a steel box is way below that of an ND or problem-gun when loading/unloading, clambering etc daily.

    When crossing the street in heavy and fast traffic, meteor-strikes are not the main worry.

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    You could add a fire proof bag for use in side your safe to help with add fire protection of your handgun, ammo and any other items of value. These can take a margenal firerated safe and up the rateing.

    Fire Proof Rope Bags 15-20'

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