Justified shoot ? - Page 2

Justified shoot ?

This is a discussion on Justified shoot ? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If LEOs are indeed held to a generally lower standard of deadly force criteria, I really don't have a problem with it. At age 56, ...

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Thread: Justified shoot ?

  1. #16
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    If LEOs are indeed held to a generally lower standard of deadly force criteria, I really don't have a problem with it. At age 56, I have been involved with around three potential deadly force encounters in my civilian life. LEOs have that many professionally on a busy day. Having personally known two LEOs who were murdered because they did not react assertively enough to a lethal threat, I guess my sympathies tend to sway in their favor. That is not to say that incompetent, unprofessional conduct should be tolerated.


  2. #17
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    A lot of it for me would depend on if I've already brandished my weapon to them. Whether they've just "seen" it or if I've already drawn it and pointed at them. Because if they are coming at me and they know I have a gun then they've created a situation where I have no choice but to fire. Otherwise I risk my life letting them take my gun.

    If they haven't seen my gun, then it would greatly depend on the circumstances. I'd need to have some other reason to suspect something going other than just somebody walking towards me with their hand in their pocket.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Here is an article on the force continuum. It should shed some light on this...Level 6 specifically....

    Force Continuum - Police Use of Force
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  4. #19
    Member Array Doubledown's Avatar
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    I am not a LEO but know many. From my understanding SOP would have been after the suspect failed to respond to commands and continued to approach with his hand in his pocket gun is drawn. Commands continue BG ignores and advances, BANG BANG BANG. I do not see what the problem is. I will say that in a similar situation where the BG keeps coming until I have no place left to go, my gun comes out with the loudest STOP NOW!!!! He continues in any direction that is not away from me and I am absolutely in fear for my life...BANG BANG BANG. I expect a complete investigation and believe I will also be justified.

  5. #20
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdp751 View Post
    Just on the news earlier today a police officer shoots a man who does not have a weapon. and it was declared justified. because he was ((approaching)) the officer in a ((threatening manner)) with his hand in his pocket. I wonder if there is double standards or if that would be justified for us as well. So now I guess we have to think about what is exactly a threatening manner. How would you interpret a threatening manner to you or your loved one. Would it be somebody who is approaching you and they are (focused) on you saying things to you. Or you have decided to move as far away as possible from this person and he keeps following you and approaching you. And remember this police officer and all are trained in self defense where most of us are not. and he still presented his weapon and fired with no visible signs of another weapon. And yet it was declared justified. So I guess we need to research what is a threatening matter against you. what standard does the police department use defining a threatening manner against you
    Well it hasnt been thru police review yet. And then the community might demand a separate one.

    Happened here in Seattle, Aug. 2010. Young cop shot a transient woodcarver he was familiar with (peaceful) that he had to challenge for an infraction. Woodcarver disregarded and witnesses said he turned towards the cop with his knife. Cop said knife open but it was found closed on the ground.

    Anyway, he was initially let off by police review but public outrage made them conduct an outside review. He was not charged with a crime but was fired.The public wanted him up on criminal charges.

    Personally, I think he used very poor judgement as he knew this non-violent woodcarver who always had a knife and who didnt move or act aggressively. OTOH, I'm sure he was taught the Tueller drill and so that may have factored into his decision to shoot. I think he read the situation poorly, as I said, but if that's what he had been taught, then I dont think the police dept should have hung him out to dry. Never once did I hear the theory behind the Tueller drill mentioned (or read) in the media. And the woodcarver was within 22 feet.

    Just my take on all that I heard and read about it, and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

    So I think 'the jury's' still out on the OP's incident that just occurred.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    There is not a double standard at all. Note this is based on the info you presented nothing else.

    Using the reasonable man criteria a person coming toward you implying they have a weapon, who refuses commands, saying whatever would be a legitimate target.

    Again very few details. There could have been a disparity of force issue the suspect was two times the size of the officer. He could have been saying I am going to pull this gun from my pocket and shoot you! Would like to see the link to the shooting.
    Really? After all that was said in the woman MP's thread?

    Couldnt the cop start to move away? Retreat as a strategy before going to open firing?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdp751 View Post
    Just on the news earlier today a police officer shoots a man who does not have a weapon. and it was declared justified. because he was ((approaching)) the officer in a ((threatening manner)) with his hand in his pocket.
    There have a been a few of these cases and the man was just reaching for a wallet. Here in the Seattle area, one was a man who barely spoke English. I do not remember the legal outcomes for the officers in the situations tho.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathie63 View Post
    I pray I NEVER get in a situation where I have to decide whether or not to use deadly force! I could back away but with a knee replacement I could not run away, so if I was threatened with great bodily harm or death I don't know if I would shoot to kill but they would definitely be on the ground in pain.
    Hi Kathy, I havent seen you here before. Welcome from another female shooter.


    I'm concerned about what you posted tho. Did you take any classes regarding self-defense shooting? What state is Janesville in?

    Basically, if you carry and use a lethal weapon, it should only be used when you feel imminent fear of death or gross bodily harm. Many times, in stress situations, it's hard enough to make shots that kill the aggressor...to plan to shoot only to wound puts you more at risk....very few shots actually STOP a threat immediately. A shot aimed anywhere but center of mass (and it should be more than one shot) is very very risky.

    And will also land you in trouble legally. As in "if you were in fear for your life, why didnt you shoot to kill?"
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I wonder if there is double standards or if that would be justified for us as well.
    Simple answer is yes. There is a double standard.

    As a society we need to be able to depend on the decisions of people we have hired in position's of trust. If we cannot trust these people to act responsibly then many areas of society will not function as needed.

    When I was growing up there were certain professions that held this freely given trust. The people hold those positions were seldom questioned. Their word on any subject was gold.

    Back then the word of a policeman, teacher, doctor, priest was not questioned. They were trusted so much that we allowed then to police themselves. We as a society knew that they would do the right thing by purging their ranks of wrongdoers in order to retain the integrity of the profession.

    Sadly one by one these groups have let us down.
    When the Priests found bad men among them they did not purge them. They allowed them to hide in their mist.
    When Hospitals have found bad doctors in their mists they have been on occasion allowed to quit and go to work elsewhere.
    Teachers, having been found in violation of public trust have been transferred or allowed to quit and then go elsewhere credentials intact.

    These groups once held in high esteem have traded in the public trust for job security. They abuse the trust by using it not to protect those they serve, but to protect themselves and their profession.

    This is why I am personally so hard on Police. As someone who was raised in a family of LEO's and with many close friends in the profession I do not want to see them lose their standing on the pedestal.
    Lives of Police would be in danger on the streets if they were no longer given the benefit of the doubt when they have to make a life or death decision. I fear that this is what is going to happen though. Like the other groups I've mentioned many police organizations have put protecting themselves above those they have sworn to protect.
    They through their own actions are losing that trust that society has given them. If they want to retain that trust they need to actively purge themselves of the ones who do not deserve the trust we give them.

    Michael

  10. #25
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speculator View Post
    More brandishing. Not good. Say you do this and a LEO sees you (and you don't see him). He's justified in shooting you. The best thing is to create distance and time and impose an obstacle or seek cover. If you are NOT a LEO you have no duty to stand and confront. Since a LEO does have this duty, he's justified shooting sooner, or possibly less visible cause (using instinct and experience). We don't have much choice but to trust them and to lean towards approving those actions.
    I speak from the laws in Texas and in Texas brandishing is legal and if a cop is there and watching he should a good witness to a shooting it need be. If a man is confronting you in a hostile manner and has his hand in his pocket you don't know he has! It could be a gun or knife and if he is coming at you at a fast pace you better be ready because he is coming to hurt you and not give you a hug
    How much damage can he do- a lot?
    just an FYI my life is worth just as much as any cops and I am here to protect it just like him/her


    Brutal knife attack - YouTube

  11. #26
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    Couldnt the cop start to move away? Retreat as a strategy before going to open firing?

    9mm I don't know not with what was given. Had the officer already backed up? Was his back against the wall? You can only back up so far before you have to take action. With what little was given no way to tell.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Couldnt the cop start to move away? Retreat as a strategy before going to open firing?

    9mm I don't know not with what was given. Had the officer already backed up? Was his back against the wall? You can only back up so far before you have to take action. With what little was given no way to tell.
    True, we dont know.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Couldnt the cop start to move away? Retreat as a strategy before going to open firing?
    I cringe whenever I hear this. Asking a person who is being attacked if they could have done more to protect their attacker.

    Michael

  14. #29
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    I do not believe that it is the responsibility of the officer to retreat. He has his gun drawn and pointed at the BG who continues to advance and will not obey commands. How far should the police retreat? Now even those that are here to protect us must give ground to the criminal? I am not going to wait to see what he has in his hand as a non LEO.

  15. #30
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    Was it this one in NC or did you have one in SC too? Suspect flees in vehicle, wrecks, flees on foot, is chased down and stopped an dark back yard, has his hands in his pockets, refuses orders, and comes at the LEO. He's asking for it.

    Police shoot suspect in chase | CharlotteObserver.com & The Charlotte Observer Newspaper

    Is there a double standard? Yes. But I don't have to chase fleeing criminals. So there's also a difference in the situations we would be in.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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