Attacked on DART train.
This is a discussion on Attacked on DART train. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; DART passenger attacked on train speaks out | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth
So this has been going on right here in my home metroplex. ...
Post By SIGguy229
December 22nd, 2011 11:37 AM
Attacked on DART train.
DART passenger attacked on train speaks out | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth
So this has been going on right here in my home metroplex. I don't ride any of the DART vehicles, never have. Mostly because none of them come close enough to my home. So if I wanted to ride one, I'd have to drive my car somewhere to get on. In which case, might as well drive my car the whole way.
Anyway, as far as I know, it is legal to concealed carry on a DART vehicle (somebody please correct me if I'm wrong) but the thing that scares me about trying to use a gun in this situation is that there are so many bystanders around. Even with JHP, I'd be very concerned about trying to hit a badguy, who is probably moving around, while not hitting an innocent. Heck, the bullet may even exit the train and hit somebody outside the train. Even drawing the gun would be problematic being that so many people around it may be easy for one of the bad guys to grab the gun. Pepper spray would also be a problem. While not having to worry about accidentally killing anyone, you'd have to worry about everyone getting a dose of it, including yourself.
Any thoughts on this?
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato
December 22nd, 2011 11:37 AM
December 22nd, 2011 11:40 AM
IMO the air freedom round would be your best option in your scenario
Extreme Shock - The World's Most Advanced Ammunition
December 22nd, 2011 12:16 PM
+1 on using frangible rounds. I don't, but I don't travel on a bus or train.
December 22nd, 2011 12:32 PM
The Air Marshals and Flight Deck Officers don't even use frangible ammo for the interior of aircraft. The only safe backstop is the body of the badguy. If you're being attacked it may be that your only option is a contact shot from a retention position and a snub revolver is excellent for that use. If you're a bystander or a fellow passenger you just may not be able to make a safe shot and your best option is to observe and report. If the path was clear enough of baystanders, a shot from kneeling or a seated position (or from being knocked to your back) will angle a shot over most peoples heads at close quarters. Also consider that you might just as easily be injured by a crowd panicking when a fight breaks out and then someone yells "gun!" and a stampede in close quarters happens. Same if some OC got sprayed into a crowd in cramped quarters.
Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)
NRA Certifed Instructor
December 22nd, 2011 12:39 PM
About the only time I could see a use for a .380. Contact shot from retention.
Hit my limit for speculation, the sky is falling, and gun owners fighting amongst themselves.
UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!
December 22nd, 2011 02:50 PM
You are correct about the air marshals, I think they use a Sig 229 in .357 sig and carry gold dots. But they are trained for a contact shot from retention. Most CCWs will not have that training. Read the following, We are on the same page....I still think in his scenario, the air marshal round would work...
Originally Posted by Superhouse 15
From Firearmstactial.com I think it sums things up...
Prefragmented Bullets: Dangerously Inadequate for Personal Defense
MagSafe, Glaser, BeeSafe, Quik-Shok.
These cartridges propel a bullet that is designed to break apart into multiple subcaliber projectiles upon impact with a human body. The theory behind prefragmented bullets (PFB) such as these is the belief: 1) that the bullet will be more effective in stopping a criminal attacker because it very quickly transfers all of its kinetic energy, 2) the multiple subcaliber projectiles create a devastating shotgun-like wound, 3) the multiple penetrating subprojectiles increase the chances of hitting something vital, 4) if the bullet misses the bad guy whom it’s been shot at, it presents less of a hazard to other people because the bullet will disintegrate when it strikes a hard object, and 5) the bullet is unlikely to completely perforate an attacker’s body intact and thus it will be less of a hazard to other people who might be downrange.
PFBs Incapacitate via Rapid Energy Transfer?
Medical professionals who are deeply involved in wound ballistics research have been unable to identify any physiological mechanism in the human body which should cause a person to collapse unconscious after having been shot with a high energy projectile. They’ve found no evidence to support a "neural shock" theory in which a bullet’s temporary cavity (produced by the transfer of bullet energy to soft body tissues) will have a remote effect on the central nervous system that causes an attacker to instantly lose consciousness.
There are examples every day of people who absorb the equivalent or more energy transfer than generated by the impact of any of the handgun bullets listed above and are not knocked unconscious or somehow rendered unable to perform willful actions: a baseball outfielder whose entire upper body crashes onto the playing field after running as fast as possible and lunging with both arms outstretched to make a last second fly ball catch, motor vehicle collisions, police officers who are shot with high energy projectiles but protected by their soft body armor, physical mishaps of all kinds, beating victims, etc.
The blunt force sensation of energy transfer might possibly play a role in producing psychological collapse. The feeling of a hard hitting bullet slamming into his body might cause an attacker to believe that he’s been very seriously hurt. This perception might cause him to voluntarily stop his aggression for survival reasons, or it might produce overwhelming mental distress that causes him to faint. He may even have the preconceived notion that he’s supposed to fall down after being shot because he’s seen actors who portray gunshot victims do this on television and in the movies.
An assailant’s psychological reaction to being shot is unpredictable. An attacker who is psychotic, chemically intoxicated, emotionally disturbed or acting with a very focused determination to cause as much harm as he can before he’s stopped might not show any reaction to being shot and may be totally oblivious to the fact that he has been shot. THE ONLY RELIABLE WAY TO QUICKLY STOP AN ATTACKER IS TO DESTROY TISSUE THAT IS CRITICAL TO HIS IMMEDIATE SURVIVAL.
Multiple Penetrating Projectiles Increase Wound Severity and Chances of Hitting Vitals?
As a PFB disintegrates and the subcaliber projectiles are released to penetrate further, the multiple wound tracks produced by the penetrating fragments weaken the integrity of resilient soft tissues. In the area of maximum temporary cavity, which is usually located within the first 5-6 inches of handgun bullet penetration, these smaller wound tracks can be torn open by the subsequent stretching of soft tissues, worsening the injury. It is important to point out that there will be SOME tearing of soft tissues in the vicinity where the multiple subprojectiles begin to disperse, in the area where their separate wound paths are located close to one another. This added disruption is probably best described as a modest increase in wound trauma. But, due to the shallow location on the wound track where this increased disruption occurs (within the first 5-6 inches of penetration), a PFB is not going provide you any advantage in wounding effectiveness when compared to the wound trauma produced by a conventional JHP bullet that meets IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specifications.
As the small PFB subcaliber projectiles penetrate deeper into soft tissues their velocity decreases. This affects the amount of tissue that is crushed. As a projectile penetrates deeper and slows, it crushes an ever decreasing diameter of tissue in its path. The reason is because as velocity decreases, the ability of soft tissue to simply stretch around the edges of the penetrating projectile to get out of the way increases. In the last few inches of penetration, these subcaliber projectiles are producing extremely narrow wound channels.
To confirm this observation for yourself, you need only look at any of gunwriter Ed Sanow’s photographs (in Handguns magazine) of PFBs shot into blocks of ordnance gelatin. You’ll notice the dye he uses to highlight the gelatin disruption doesn’t seep down the very narrow wound channels produced by the subcaliber projectiles. The narrowness of the individual wound channels is most evident in his photographs of MagSafe bullets. Sometimes a wound channel isn’t visible behind a pellet at all.
Projectile shape also affects the amount of tissue disruption. Spherical shaped shotgun pellets are less efficient in producing wound trauma. The smooth rounded shape allows elastic-like soft tissue to more easily stretch around the projectile, rather than being crushed. The shotgun pellets used in most PFBs produce tiny, pinhole-sized wound channels.
The three irregular-shaped fragment pieces of a Quik-Shok bullet are not aerodynamic, but this doesn’t mean that they’ll tumble end-over-end after they separate and chew their way through flesh. What these subcaliber projectiles do is quickly seek a state of stabilization in dense soft tissue. Once stabilization is achieved, the fragments continue to penetrate in a fixed (non-tumbling) orientation. (Triton is kind enough to publish a photo of their Quik-Shok wound profile in ordnance gelatin on their web site, but unfortunately there’s no measuring device included in the photo to allow interested persons to determine the scale of the disruption. A link to Triton’s Quik-Shok web page is provided at the end of this article.)
Under ideal conditions the multiple projectiles can be very damaging. A PFB that impacts and penetrates the unobstructed upper torso of an attacker will probably produce a severe injury, but so too will a conventional JHP bullet.
However, the dynamics of violent confrontation often produce less than ideal target engagement conditions, and a defender might not have the opportunity to make a perfect, unobstructed shot to the chest or head if shots to the body fail. It’s not uncommon for a bullet to encounter an outstretched arm that is holding a weapon, or for a bullet to be required to negotiate an unusual penetration angle. Both of these scenarios require a bullet that penetrates deeper than the subcaliber projectiles of any PFB to reach and disrupt the vital cardiovascular structures needed to produce fatal hemorrhage that will reliably stop an attacker.
If you hold both your arms out in front of you as if you were holding a handgun in a two handed shooting grip, you’ll observe that a bullet will have to pass diagonally through approximately 4-5 inches of forearm muscle (assuming the bullet doesn’t strike bone) before it exits to penetrate your chest. PFB subprojectiles would have to not only penetrate this much muscle tissue, they would also have to overcome the resistance of the skin to exit the forearm. Skin can present as much of an obstacle to bullet exit as 4 inches of muscle tissue. Although the skin on a forearm probably won’t offer this much resistance to subprojectile exit, it will still subtract from the penetrating potential of each fragment that exits the arm.
A couple of examples of situations where your bullet might have to negotiate an unusually deep, but unobstructed penetration angle include the possibility of being knocked off your feet and having to fire at an attacker who is towering over you, or having to shoot an assailant from the side or an oblique angle through an arm or shoulder while coming to the aid of a loved one who’s under attack.
Finally, it would seem logical that if the number of penetrating projectiles were increased that the chances of hitting something vital would likewise also increase. We’re unaware of any cogent study that has specifically examined PFBs to determine whether or not the multiple projectiles increase the potential for damaging vital tissues. We’re unconvinced there is any advantage due to the few number of subprojectiles released by PFBs, the shallow depth in the wound profile where maximal tissue damage is produced, the uneven penetration distribution of individual fragments and the narrow wound channels crushed by the subprojectiles.
Do PFBs increase the odds of disrupting vitals? This theory is based on the belief that the wide lateral dispersion of the subprojectiles increases the chances that one or more fragments at the outer radius of the distribution pattern will damage a vital organ that would have been missed by a single, large penetrating projectile. But what offsets any advantage gained by this capability is the relative mildness in severity of the resultant wound trauma produced by one or two small fragments that happen to stray into vital tissue. While inflicting a vital wound is the desired and intended goal, tissue damaged in this manner is not going to quickly force an attacker to stop. This capability does not adequately compensate for poor shot placement.
The erratic penetration distribution of PFB subprojectiles can also decrease the overall severity of a vital wound. The deepest penetrating fragments seem to be the ones that penetrate straight ahead. Consider the severity of wound trauma produced by a well placed shot where only one or two deeply penetrating fragments manage to intersect the heart, aorta or vena cava near the end of their wound paths. The holes crushed in the wall of the affected structure will be very narrow in diameter compared to the large single hole crushed by an expanded JHP bullet following exactly the same straight ahead trajectory through the body.
Do PFBs Minimize the Risk of Danger to Others?
Maybe, as long as a PFB penetrates flesh. If a PFB misses the bad guy entirely, it’s no less dangerous to others than a conventional JHP bullet. There’s no guarantee that a stray PFB will hit an intervening obstacle that will stop it or cause it to fragment into smaller, supposedly less dangerous particles. If it does breakup, is there a greater chance that the increased number of ricocheting fragments might strike and seriously injure others who are nearby?
With the exception of the MagSafe SWAT cartridge, PFBs typically remain intact and have the potential to penetrate several layers of plasterboard or other barrier materials such as sheet metal, glass and plywood. PFBs tested against common building materials used to construct dwellings demonstrate slightly less penetrating potential than conventional JHP bullets.
A PFB that hits an assailant off-center along the periphery of his body, producing a short through-and-through wound track that involves only a few inches of tissue penetration before exiting, will probably fragment and be slightly less dangerous to others than a conventional JHP following the same path.
A PFB that hits an attacker’s body squarely will be no less dangerous to others than a conventional JHP bullet that meets IWBA Handgun Ammunition Specifications. In this scenario, it’s highly unlikely that a PFB or a JHP bullet will overpenetrate an attacker’s body. A deep penetrating JHP bullet will most likely be retained inside the attacker’s body by the holdback effect of skin.
When you target an attacker’s torso with your bullet, the only way your bullet is going to reliably stop him is for it to destroy vital cardiovascular structures which are located deeply in his body. To stop him quickly your bullet must crush a hole in one of these structures to produce blood loss in quantity to force him to collapse unconscious. An attacker must lose at least 20 percent of his blood volume before it begins to affect the functioning of his brain. Therefore, unless you can predict the future with absolute certainty that you will have a clear, unobstructed front to back shot into a attacker’s sternum, the bullet you choose for personal-defense should be capable of inflicting wound trauma that promotes rapid fatal hemorrhage from any engagement angle.
PFBs do not give you this level of capability. The area of greatest tissue destruction produced by PFBs is located at a point that is too shallow in the wound track to reliably include blood bearing organs when less than ideal conditions are encountered.
The last few inches of a bullet’s wound track are the most important because this is where it is most likely to encounter vital tissues. The large expanded diameter of a deeply penetrating JHP bullet is going to produce much greater wound trauma when it passes through the heart or a major abdominal blood vessel than the subcaliber fragments of a PFB. Blood loss in volume to have an effect is going to take time. The single, larger diameter JHP wound will facilitate faster blood loss than the constricted wound channels crushed by PFB subprojectiles.
PFBs are less hazardous to bystanders than JHP bullets in theory only. However, if you keep a handgun for home defense and you’re concerned about wall penetration, then the MagSafe SWAT cartridge is the only choice that meets your requirements for limited wall penetration. None of the other cartridges discussed in this article are designed to fragment as they pass through wallboard. The tradeoff for this limited penetration of interior walls is significantly lessened wounding effectiveness.
For concealed carry, if you live in a jurisdiction that outlaws JHP bullets and you’d feel more comfortable loading your gun with a PFB instead of non-expanding ammunition, the non-hollowpoint design BeeSafe might be worth considering.
Bullet selection for personal defense should be directed toward choosing one that possesses the qualities that will make it effective over a wide range of scenarios because this will increase your chances of survival when the unusual happens. The most important quality is penetration because a handgun bullet cannot damage what it does not touch. If the bullet you shoot into an attacker’s body doesn’t pass through a major blood bearing organ, there’s no reason why your bullet should suddenly compel him to stop whatever he’s doing that’s endangering your life or the life of a loved one.
Despite the marketing claims of the companies who manufacture these bullets and the assertions of gunwriters who are preoccupied with velocity and energy transfer, PFBs do not reliably penetrate deeply enough nor produce the kind of wound trauma that is needed to quickly and reliably stop a determined attacker, and this is why we feel they’re dangerously inadequate for personal defense.
December 22nd, 2011 04:45 PM
The reason I suggested the snub is that it's harder to disable at contact range if it should get jammed out of battery or something. The FAMs use .357 Gold Dot and the FFDOs use 180gr .40 Gold Dots. A bonded bullet seems the opposite of what you might expect. I think the frangibles have their place, and far from worthless. If I had my choice I'd use MagSafe if I absolutely had to load a frangible.
Originally Posted by Sticks
Try not to screw up so bad they name the screw up after you. (Station 15 saying)
NRA Certifed Instructor
December 22nd, 2011 05:06 PM
I say, pick your battles.
If you decide to act, fight the fight in front of you...and fight to win. If you're worried about where rounds MIGHT land outside your immediate area, that's well and good right now. But if you're fighting, fight to win...your enemy is in front of you--he doesn't care where his rounds go, he just wants to kill you.
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
December 22nd, 2011 06:14 PM
Excellent statement SIGguy229.
December 22nd, 2011 06:51 PM
It doesn't to to have one's head buried in techno marvels while on enemy turf.
Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
December 22nd, 2011 09:07 PM
O.K. but banana boats generally sail south to north.
Originally Posted by Pistology
December 22nd, 2011 09:40 PM
What, with your eyes closed?? The chief should have a few of his multitude of transit officers ride with this particular victim. HE apparently has skills that they should take advantage of.
(the victim of one attack says of the perpetrators
) "I have seen them not just once, but more than five times on the train," Hurtado said.
DART couldn't comment on the case because it is under investigation. The agency's police chief, James Spiller, told News 8 the case is not closed.
When we asked Spiller if DART officers are trying to catch the people responsible, he said: "Yes, we are."
I freaking hate public transportation.
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
December 22nd, 2011 10:03 PM
Didn't that statement that he had seen them at least 5 times make you wonder why they are still at large?
Originally Posted by ArkhmAsylm
I have to say if someone beat me that bad, I identified them, no charges were filed, and then I saw them again, I think I'd be getting off at their stop for a little payback.
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