Confronted by LEO while carrying - Page 2

Confronted by LEO while carrying

This is a discussion on Confronted by LEO while carrying within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here, it is not an available lookup for LEO... It's not on your plate, It's not shown in DMV records. We do not have to ...

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Thread: Confronted by LEO while carrying

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Here, it is not an available lookup for LEO... It's not on your plate, It's not shown in DMV records. We do not have to notify.

    I will notify... I'll hand them my DL and my PCW at the same time... It's a courtesy, I expect it would be appreciated. I don't expect to be pulled over, but if it happens, that's my game plan. No harm can come of it.

    If the officer gives me unnecessary lip over the fact (doubtful) if he insists on disarming me (even more doubtful), I'll continue with the stop at his direction, and report it later.

    These guys have a hard enough job without my making it more difficult for them. In Iowa they are being trained to ask "Are you armed today?" or similar... They'll probably even ask after you've handed them the PCW.

    As to them listing suggestions on the back of the card... They probably shouldn't, since most of them don't carry the weight of law... But, I really don't see the harm.

    I have more of a problem with them posting the county courthouse as a gun free zone, where routine business is conducted, (and which is against the laws of the state) but for now, they're getting away with it.
    Maxwell47 likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    :SNIP:
    As to them listing suggestions on the back of the card... They probably shouldn't, since most of them don't carry the weight of law... But, I really don't see the harm.

    I have more of a problem with them posting the county courthouse as a gun free zone, where routine business is conducted, (and which is against the laws of the state) but for now, they're getting away with it.
    The problem it causes is that it creates confusion as to which demands a government makes carry the weight of law and which are mere suggestions. Maybe the posting of the Courthouse you mention is not a violation of State law. Maybe it is just a recommendation?
    Citizens should not be put in a position of having to guess which rules their governments put out are Law and which are not.

    Along the same lines the County I live in has started putting up speed limit signs to slow traffic on some stretches of State and U.S. highways. They are different colors than official signs. These signs do not carry the weight of law but most motorist do no know this. I wonder how many might unknowingly pay a fine if ticketed for exceeding the limit of these bogus signs?

    Michael

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdprof View Post
    By putting those instructions on the permit, it gives them the appearance of being the law. And as the OP points out, all but one of them are not.

    That's wrong! If I was a CO resident, I'd point that out to the DMV or whatever other agency is responsible for the content of the permit.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptSmith View Post
    pretty obvious what the police in Colorado want,...
    My permit, from the Arapahoe County Sheriff, has no such nonsense on it. The bogus instruction is only indicative of what the Denver Sheriff thinks, not CO LEOs in general.
    CaptSmith likes this.

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    The problem it causes is that it creates confusion as to which demands a government makes carry the weight of law and which are mere suggestions. Maybe the posting of the Courthouse you mention is not a violation of State law. Maybe it is just a recommendation?
    Citizens should not be put in a position of having to guess which rules their governments put out are Law and which are not.

    Along the same lines the County I live in has started putting up speed limit signs to slow traffic on some stretches of State and U.S. highways. They are different colors than official signs. These signs do not carry the weight of law but most motorist do no know this. I wonder how many might unknowingly pay a fine if ticketed for exceeding the limit of these bogus signs?

    Michael
    Good points, well made... I'll still inform. Based on SIXTO's post.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  5. #20
    Member Array Speculator's Avatar
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    If you are concerned I'd suggest for your peace of mind you print out the statute, or PDF from ushandgunlaw and carry it with you in your vehicle. That way if you do not inform and are hassled, you can say 'Sir in good faith following the statute I have taken the time to learn, I am not required to inform, here is a copy if you'd like to see it'. If you have a good LEO (good luck) then he will desist. If not you're taking the ride.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speculator View Post
    If you are concerned I'd suggest for your peace of mind you print out the statute, or PDF from ushandgunlaw and carry it with you in your vehicle. That way if you do not inform and are hassled, you can say 'Sir in good faith following the statute I have taken the time to learn, I am not required to inform, here is a copy if you'd like to see it'. If you have a good LEO (good luck) then he will desist. If not you're taking the ride.
    OK...say he's going for a ride....

    What, praytell, will he be charged with? Following the law?

    I say, follow the law...that's what your legislature approved. Is there an organization in CO that you can appeal to, to fight these extraordinary local requirements? Not the NRA, but a state-level, grassroots organization like Virginia Citizens Defense League, Inc. (VCDL) has for Virginia?
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  7. #22
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    In general, I think LEO's have a pretty good spidey sense. Unless you're a sociopath, he may be able to sense that you're withholding information pertaining to his comfort level. Use your common sense.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    Rather than trusting the word of a bunch of armchair quarterbacks on a website...

    Book a consultation with a 2nd amendment attorney. Spend a few bucks for their time & have a list of questions. You now have an association with an attorney on whom you can call if ever, God forbid, they are needed.

    My method in Missouri, which is a state that does not require informing an officer unless asked, is as follows.
    Officer approaches:
    Keep hands in plain sight... "Officer, before we begin, do you need to see my ccw?"

    This accomplishes a few things:
    Informs them you are legally carrying
    Shows them you have nothing to hide
    Takes their threat level from 10 to 2
    Puts the ball in their court

    The result of informing with no obligation has saved me from a few COSTLY tickets and lessened one ticket to a summons that did not require a court visit and did not cost me points. I also impressed a few officers who later asked "What ya carrying?" The consensus is that the officers I encountered were gun guys and were not used to civilians that knew their weapons.

    Last one that pulled me over was a Missouri state trooper. When he learned I had a S&W M&P 357c on my hip and a S&W Mod 66 in the console he said "Boy, you don't mess around, do you? I am so used to people that get a permit & think a piece of $%&# Jennings 380 is worth carrying. Go big or go home I say." Then he gave me a ticket.
    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
    - Roy Batty

  9. #24
    Distinguished Member Array Elk Hunter's Avatar
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    I limit my expouser to LEO unless it is in a social setting or as is the case we have a few LEO that attend the same church as I do. I think out of respect for the job they do, if I am ever stopped I will inform. I will simply put the window down, put my hands back on the wheel and when LEO approaches I will inform and follow the directions I receive. The permit I was issued in El Paso county does not have those instructions.

    Merry Christmas everyone

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I do not see anything in the OP's post questioning whether or not a person should notify. The question I see being asked is about the guidelines the State puts on the license.
    In my opinion the State should not be doing anything that muddies the waters when it comes to the law. Why put someone in a position of having to decide which part of a legal document is a lawful requirement and which is just there because some bureaucrat thought it was a cool idea?

    This was not a question of notify or not notify.

    Michael
    Anubis likes this.

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Agave's Avatar
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    I have a competitor that is a retired Tennessee cop that instructs his students that the law requires that they notify. He is mistaken. The material advises all students to notify, but the law doesn't require it. However, I agree; it is usually a good idea.
    The preceding post may contain sarcasm; it's just better that way. However, it is still intended with construction and with the Love of my L-rd Y'shua.

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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocPMD View Post
    I should have added that, in Colorado, the Sheriff who issues the permit has the option to enter the names of CCW permit holders into the statewide criminal database. For the most part they all do it.

    I don't want to sidetrack this thread into a discussion about the injustice of being treated like a common criminal just for getting a CCW permit - although it is a viable topic.

    I only mention it because chances are that LEO will already know about the CCW permit if they run the vehicles license on a traffic stop.

    Thanks,
    Doc
    I believe that information is dated. I'm pretty sure the practice of some county sheriffs entering CHP holders into the database was discontinued last year, after it was discovered that the database was full of erroneous entries.

    Here is a clipping I made some time back. The URL is no longer working, however.

    CBI will purge concealed weapons file (CO) Politics
    Jun 292011

    The concealed weapons file maintained by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation will be purged by June 30 under the "sunset provision" of Colorado statute 18-12-206(3)(b) by the 2007 Colorado General Assembly. Information previously submitted by law enforcement agencies regarding concealed carry weapons permits statewide will no longer be available, Chaffee County Sheriff Pete Palmer said recently. Palmer said the Colorado bureau will no longer accept or maintain future data. "All other provisions of the state law remain in effect," he said. Colorado residents will be allowed to receive concealed handgun permits and previously issued valid permits remain valid. The database...

    Posted by themountainmail.com at 12:52 pm Tagged with: New, Politics




    and another clipping on the same subject.

    Colorado gun-permit database incomplete, riddled with errors

    By Kirk Mitchell, The Denver Post
    Posted: 12/20/2010 01:00:00 AM MST
    Updated: 12/20/2010 05:56:20 AM MST
    A database police rely on to know who has a concealed-gun permit is incomplete and riddled with errors, a recent state audit found.
    "We found the information in the database is not reliable for law enforcement to use in determining the validity of a permit," the report says.
    The audit also noted that the total number of concealed-weapons permits issued quadrupled from 6,300 a year in 2005 to 27,000 in 2009.
    Colorado's concealed-weapons database does not contain information about 16,000 permits — 45 percent of those issued — partly because 20 counties, including Douglas and El Paso, don't enter the information with Colorado Crime Information Center.
    And that is just part of the problem. Among other audit findings:
    • Of 51,000 records that are entered by participating sheriff's offices onto the computer system, 32,000, or 63 percent, of the records contain inaccuracies, the audit says.
    • Although concealed-gun permits expire in five years, the database contains records for dozens of permits claiming they won't expire for 40, 50 or 100 years.
    • 2,000 records in the database are duplicates, with one showing the permit as valid, and a second showing it as revoked — for the same person.
    • Another 2,700 permits indicate on an initial screen that a person has a permit while a secondary screen shows that they were denied a permit.
    "This problem is significant because law enforcement do not always look at the details behind the initial screen," the audit says.
    A state survey showed that 68 percent of police officers, sheriff's deputies and state troopers do not check past the initial screen. That could lead to police thinking the subject of a warrant has a weapon, when the person might not, or vice versa.
    When asked whether the database was useful, 72 percent of 74 responding officers said it was. Many said it kept law enforcement officers safer because they knew who was armed with a gun. Their perception was mistaken, however, the audit noted.
    The audit also found that sheriff's offices were logging significantly more information about people than was contained on state concealed-permit applications.
    Although there was no question on the application about a person's race, for example, all 51,000 computer records included the information.
    Also, Social Security numbers, driver's license numbers and even a person's occupation were obtained and recorded independently of the application, possibly through interviewing.
    However, auditors noted that it was unclear whether the legislature intended to limit questioning to only what was on the applications.
    Authorities from the Colorado Bureau of Investigation, which monitors the database, declined to comment.
    Kirk Mitchell: 303-954-1206 or kmitchell@denverpost.com

    Last edited by marcclarke; December 22nd, 2011 at 05:17 PM. Reason: Added clipping about discontinuation of CO weapons permits into state-wide database.

  13. #28
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anubis View Post
    My permit, from the Arapahoe County Sheriff, has no such nonsense on it. The bogus instruction is only indicative of what the Denver Sheriff thinks, not CO LEOs in general.
    Similarly, CHP permits from Larimer County, CO have no such language on them. This is a Denver issue, not a Colorado-wide issue.

    This would not be the first time Denver has attempted to preempt state law. So far as I am aware from looking at the statues database today, there is no requirement anywhere in Colorado that a CO CHP-holder must inform a police officer.

    (The above is an entirely different discussion from whether it is a good idea to inform the officer whether state law requires one to inform an officer.)
    9MMare and BkCo1 like this.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcclarke View Post
    Similarly, CHP permits from Larimer County, CO have no such language on them. This is a Denver issue, not a Colorado-wide issue.

    This would not be the first time Denver has attempted to preempt state law. So far as I am aware from looking at the statues database today, there is no requirement anywhere in Colorado that a CO CHP-holder must inform a police officer.
    Seattle has attempted the same thing, with regards to carrying in 'community' areas. It was challenged in the courts and I dont think the review was completed. I just think it was dropped since our State Constitution says the opposite of what they were trying to do.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocPMD View Post
    The statute doesn't say anything about a duty to inform LEO about carrying.

    I'm glad the instructions are on the card because now there is no doubt how I need to respond in the event of contact with LEO. But I can't say that I agree with it, especially since there is nothing in the statutes that require it.

    Thoughts and opinions?
    Doc
    Colorado State statutes on the Concealed Handgun Permit are located here. Nothing I can see new about duty to inform an officer.

    Colorado Department of Public Safety

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