Shoot or Don't shoot?

This is a discussion on Shoot or Don't shoot? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Ok so tonight me and some friends of mine went to a hookah lounge. I always carry a gun since I have had my CCW ...

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Thread: Shoot or Don't shoot?

  1. #1
    Member Array gbahri's Avatar
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    Shoot or Don't shoot?

    Ok so tonight me and some friends of mine went to a hookah lounge. I always carry a gun since I have had my CCW (had it for 2 months now), today was the first day I didn't carry it because we were gonna dance and I didn't want to risk it falling out or my shirt lifting up and showing it etc.. On the way out, we were goign to IHOP to get some food. Me and my buddy are walking to our cars and this car stops next to us with 5 people in it. 3 of the guys come out and start cussing at my friend and basically acting like they are gonna pound him. We have never seen these guys and don't know who they are. Either they were drunk or thought we were someone else.


    So I try to calm the situation by talking to them etc.. eventually they left and nothing happened. Then I thought, what if I was carrying my gun and they decided to beat my friends ass. There are 3 of them already out, 2 in the car that could join in, and its just me and my friend. Would I have shot them? Or what if only 2 were beating him up? How bout 1?

    This was the first time I have ever been in a situation where it could have easily escalated and I would have to choose "shoot or dont shoot"

    Ideas?

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    I'm not getting into a fistfight with a pistol on my hip; OTOH:

    Drawing might have defused the situation without shots being fired, but it MIGHT have started a firefight if any of them were armed.

    Tough call, but if the fight starts 3 on 1 I think you have to draw.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

  4. #3
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbahri View Post
    I always carry a gun since I have had my CCW (had it for 2 months now), today was the first day I didn't carry it because ...
    It happens when you least expect it. All you can do is to be prepared. CCW = carry always, IMO. For just such reasons.

    ... this car stops next to us with 5 people in it. 3 of the guys come out and ...
    They commited assault, aggressively ganging up on your friend. That's enough to alarm anyone.

    Either they were drunk or thought we were someone else.
    They could easily have been bent on having some "fun" and not backed down. Lucky. Very lucky.

    This was the first time I have ever been in a situation where it could have easily escalated and I would have to choose "shoot or dont shoot" Ideas?
    Depends on circumstancs and the specific dynamics as it unfolds, of course. Nobody's required to first get his head kicked in prior to defending himself. IMO, it's a good example of why concealed carry is a very, very good thing. In my case, there is no way I would allow an aggressive gang of people to approach in that manner. I've had just such a situation, previously (two, instead of five). In this instance, I would have been backing away, seeking cover and distance, while having drawn. I would have concisely and clearly offered them a simple choice. They would have been afforded a brief time to consider the options. Had they continued anyway, in spite of the stark warning, then I would have to assume one or more of them was armed and/or capable of taking me out ... hence, not all of them would have made it home that night. But that's just me.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Yeah. That's gang assualt. I think drawing may have been the best option, man. You could have called 911, but I don't think a situation like this has that kind of time allotment or build-up. Sudden things like this tend to be the reason a person carries.... But I would be more concerned with the hookah. I smoke some of it sometimes and I think it puts a person into too relaxed a state.

    Anyhow, to get back to it.... I think you would have been good to draw. Be loud with your voice and tell them to get back. If I'm not mistaken, in FL you don't have to retreat - so if they charge you then I think it may have been a clean shoot. I think you may have been better to fire into some grass or ground somehow......

    But then again.... I'm 2000 miles away and this is hindsight.

    AND - welcome to the forum!
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    In this situation since there were 2 of you & if you had a cell phone you should get the 911 call in asap. You can attempt to call w/ your weak hand & keep your gun hand at the ready to draw.
    You'll want to at least have that call IN before the situation possibly escalates.
    Often...even before drawing...the act of grabbing the cell and making the 911 call will also serve to defuse the situation.
    That way you have attempted to quell the situation by another possible means.
    Also remember that while you may not have a legal obligation to retreat that if you draw and fire resulting in injury or death you are still going to be under criminal investigation and a likely civil action will follow. Best to get away and report the incident if possible.
    Hopefully you got a plate # and vehicle description and already did that.
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    VIP Member Array raevan's Avatar
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    Must be that I'm from a different generation , What is Hookah ?
    If it puts you in a relaxed state , sounds like a drug. Is it legal ?
    It is never wise to be carrying and doing mind altering substances.
    If Hookah is illeagal and you use your gun you break a federal law and will spend time .

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Nope, hookah isn't illegal. One is essentially smoking mollasses, honey, and spices. It tastes pretty nice. Pretty much like taking a shot of whiskey. Just makes you wanna chill in a chair for an hour before you get bored. haha Anytime we pull out the hookah the gun gets locked-up though.
    The Gunsite Blog
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    "It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008

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    Red face

    The legal hookah lounges use flavoured tobaccos or legal herbals for their hookah pipes...combined with nice relaxing Mediterranean atmosphere.

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    Senior Member Array Timmy Jimmy's Avatar
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    From what I just read on the Internet about a hookah lounge if there are any in Texas they would probably do 51% of their business selling alcohol and you can not carry in Texas if the establishment does 51% or more in alcohol sales.

    Also even if it was not 51% but you had even one drink of wine or beer you can not carry in Texas so you were probably right not carrying.

    Now if the same thing happened when you were coming out of a bowling alley, movie or a restaurant then I think until the first blow is landed you need to stay holstered until deadly force is authorized. If they had a bat or knife then draw and shoot but just a bunch of drunks mouthing off and threating would be real risky.
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    gbahri, if you're carrying in FL, you really, really need to buy and study a copy of "Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership" by Jon Gutmacher. He is a lawyer specializing in this field and publishes an updated version regularly. In plain language it covers CCW and all aspects of legal self defense including the grey areas. It won't leave you with any questions or doubts about what you can and can't do. On a subject as serious and potentially life threatening as this you really want all the info you can get! They are for sale as a paperback in many gun shops or can be found on the internet here:

    http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/indexbook.shtml

    I also wish more LEO's would read it. One I know did and said "Wow, a few things in there I wasn't even aware of." Another individual came up with the great idea of keeping it in your car in case you need to politely suggest to a mistaken LEO about a point of law concerning CCW since it does quote the laws for reference. Who knows if it would work but it just might!
    If you stand up and be counted, from time to time you may get yourself knocked down. But remember this: A man flattened by an opponent can get up again. A man flattened by conformity stays down for good. ~ Thomas J. Watson, Jr.

  12. #11
    Senior Member Array BlueLion's Avatar
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    Step on the gas and get out of there, while one of your friends calls the cops and let them know your location. This way it is a record of you trying to avoid the confrontation, just in case you have to shoot. Also, since carrying I try avoid clubs and bars. Some may say otherwise, but this is how I do it. I also avoid if possible going through the bad parts of town.
    Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....

  13. #12
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    Neve heard of a Hookah bar . sounds alot like a mild deppresant, so probably go you were not carrying. If possible diengage and call 911, if no other options, then you need to decide how bad someone you (or your friend) will get beaten until you intervene.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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    Member Array gbahri's Avatar
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    Hey guys whats up. Thanks for the replies.

    1) About the hookah lounge. I base my 51% Alcohol rule on places if they are called bars or not. It is not possible for me to know exactly how much money they make from certain products. The places ends with the word "cafe" so I assume they make tons of money on food.

    2) I do not drink. Even when I don't have a gun I don't drink. I just don't like the taste.

    3) I don't smoke Hooakh. LOL Yes yes, I sound like I don't do anything. But the thought of inhaling smoke in my lungs isn't very nice. So I just go and chill with my friends, order an appetizer, while they drink and smoke and do whatever. I still have fun in my own way.

    So yes, I defused the situation with words wich is always the best thing to do. However if they started to attack my friend, I think calling 911 would just prolong my friends beating and bring him closer to death. We all know cops aren't like the movies where they come within 15 seconds. Sometimes it takes them 10 minutes to get somewhere. In 10 minutes someone can die.

    I dunno. I am just glad in my first close call I didn't have to use my gun and I can thing about the situation and learn from it.

  15. #14
    Member Array gbahri's Avatar
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    What are your thoughts on carrying a taser? In a situation like that, a taser sounds like a best idead while keeping the gun holstered.

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array Old Chief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tanksoldier View Post
    I'm not getting into a fistfight with a pistol on my hip:
    +1 on this. If you feel that your life or the life of your friend was in danger it is time to draw and shoot.

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