Question about possession/carry distinction in the proposed federal reciprocity law

Question about possession/carry distinction in the proposed federal reciprocity law

This is a discussion on Question about possession/carry distinction in the proposed federal reciprocity law within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In states such as NY (and some others), you need prior permission from a police department or state government to possess (in some cases purchase) ...

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Thread: Question about possession/carry distinction in the proposed federal reciprocity law

  1. #1
    Member Array vanguardist's Avatar
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    Question about possession/carry distinction in the proposed federal reciprocity law

    In states such as NY (and some others), you need prior permission from a police department or state government to possess (in some cases purchase) a handgun.

    Under the proposed national reciprocity law, it is my understanding that it would make any and all concealed carry license valid in any other state so long as the laws of the state where you are carrying is valid.

    What, then, stops NY/NYC (and places like Chicago, D.C., CA maybe, etc.) where handguns have to first be registered to the possessor even before an additional permission to carry them concealed is issued?

    I mean, if you have to follow the laws of the state where you are going to carry, then in NY you have to obtain a license even to have a pistol in your home. In CA firearms would require registration.

    Could those states and cities simply say, "OK, you can carry the firearm IF you can possess it. But to possess a firearm you need X and Y requirement."

    Am I missing something?


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    Member Array ashamans's Avatar
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    I think you would have to be able to legally posses it in your home state, so i here in kansas just have to no be a felon pretty much, but those states that your are talking about would have to have that gun regesterd in their home state

    i hope some more chime in, im not 100%
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    Member Array vanguardist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashamans View Post
    I think you would have to be able to legally posses it in your home state, so i here in kansas just have to no be a felon pretty much, but those states that your are talking about would have to have that gun regesterd in their home state

    i hope some more chime in, im not 100%
    Well, I think it would be like respecting a driver's license but not necessarily an unregistered car (especially one from out of state). Thus, you can still "carry" a firearm with your out of state license. However, the car/firearm is not registered in that state (in those that require registration or permission to merely possess) and then it all falls apart.

    I think this law is doomed. It would be nice to have it but I am afraid that at the national level it would become worse on states that have good gun laws on the long run. The feds might impose additional background checks, specialized licensing, etc. Though I feel bad for gun owners (and potential gun owners) in the worse states, I think it would be worse if the good states had to become worse to comply with the federal law. After all, things always get more "bureaucratized" and simple things get worse over time.

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    Member Array jfnixon's Avatar
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    If the Feds decide to impose additional rules on top of existing State laws, they will do it whether or not the Reciprocity Law exists. So I don't think that is a good objection to required reciprocity. A simple requirement for reciprocity, such as exists for a driver's license and a marriage license, doesn't seem to be a dangerous thing to the 2nd Amendment.

    I don't think the licensing of the gun itself matters. After all, I can drive my car in NY even if NY licensing requirements differ from my home state. AIUI, NY couldn't pass a law that said "only autos registered in jurisdictions that equal or exceed NY State requirements for emissions can be driven in the State of NY. Violation is a felony."

    As always, YMMV, IANAL.
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    I may be incorrect, but because of the way it's worded, your concealed carry permit would probably not be valid in NYC. NYC has it's own statutes on concealed carry and unless I'm mistaken, even the NY state permit is not valid inside the city limits. I'd be willing to bet that NYC will disallow outside CCW permits based on that fact. Obviously Chicago won't have any issues there since concealed carry is not an option for Illinois residents anyway, so no reciprocity will exist.

    On a side note about this bill, does anyone know about all the GAO audit stuff that's been put into that bill? Why the interest in non-resident permits?

    This stuff was not in the original bill but it's now in the bill before the House:

    SEC. 3. GAO AUDIT OF THE STATES' CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT OR LICENSING REQUIREMENTS FOR NON-RESIDENTS.

    (a) The Comptroller General of the United States shall conduct an audit of--

    (1) the laws and regulations of each State that authorize the issuance of a valid permit or license to permit a person, other than a resident of such State, to possess or carry a concealed firearm, including a description of the permitting or licensing requirements of each State that issues concealed carry permits or licenses to persons other than a resident of such State;

    (2) the number of such valid permits or licenses issued or denied (and the basis for such denials) by each State to persons other than a resident of such State; and

    (3) the effectiveness of such State laws and regulations in protecting the public safety.

    (b) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, the Comptroller General shall submit to Congress a report on the findings of the study conducted under subsection (a).

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    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    Seems this will not help us here in New Jersey........

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    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    I may be incorrect, but because of the way it's worded, your concealed carry permit would probably not be valid in NYC. NYC has it's own statutes on concealed carry and unless I'm mistaken, even the NY state permit is not valid inside the city limits. I'd be willing to bet that NYC will disallow outside CCW permits based on that fact. Obviously Chicago won't have any issues there since concealed carry is not an option for Illinois residents anyway, so no reciprocity will exist.
    NYC would be okay for carry with an out of state permit... My understanding anyway is that the bill says that any out-of-state permit has to be recognized at the highest level for the host state.



    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    On a side note about this bill, does anyone know about all the GAO audit stuff that's been put into that bill? Why the interest in non-resident permits?

    This stuff was not in the original bill but it's now in the bill before the House:

    SEC. 3. GAO AUDIT OF THE STATES' CONCEALED CARRY PERMIT OR LICENSING REQUIREMENTS FOR NON-RESIDENTS.

    (a) The Comptroller General of the United States shall conduct an audit of--

    (1) the laws and regulations of each State that authorize the issuance of a valid permit or license to permit a person, other than a resident of such State, to possess or carry a concealed firearm, including a description of the permitting or licensing requirements of each State that issues concealed carry permits or licenses to persons other than a resident of such State;

    (2) the number of such valid permits or licenses issued or denied (and the basis for such denials) by each State to persons other than a resident of such State; and

    (3) the effectiveness of such State laws and regulations in protecting the public safety.

    (b) Not later than 1 year after the date of enactment of this Act, the Comptroller General shall submit to Congress a report on the findings of the study conducted under subsection (a).

    Government doing what it does best... wasting money on research.

    I think it's pretty harmless... might even help since there are so few denials in the permitting process. There's also no surge of gun crime when a CCW expansion occurs, so there's no data to present from such a study to use against it.


    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    Seems this will not help us here in New Jersey........
    Why?
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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Until/unless a friendly Senate and President arrives on the scene, this is ll just too much to concern myself with at the moment.

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Do you have to register your car when you drive through Illinois, New York or California? No, you don't, it's registered legally in the State that you are from. Your gun permit is legal in your own State, if this law passes, it should be legal in the Gun Free States.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    Do you have to register your car when you drive through Illinois, New York or California? No, you don't, it's registered legally in the State that you are from. Your gun permit is legal in your own State, if this law passes, it should be legal in the Gun Free States.
    If you carry a pistol with a +10 mag capacity in CA, you will still be guilty of importing a banned firearm. I don't think registration requirements will hold for nonresidents, but you will still have to meet local requirements.

    I see a bit of an increase in Revolver sales if this actually passes.
    There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap - ballot - jury - ammo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    Do you have to register your car when you drive through Illinois, New York or California? No, you don't, it's registered legally in the State that you are from. Your gun permit is legal in your own State, if this law passes, it should be legal in the Gun Free States.
    Not sure what you are referring to? This bill will not affect Illinois since they don't allow concealed carry at all. Your permit will not be valid in IL because concealed carry will remain illegal unless Illinois passes a concealed carry law allowing its citizens to carry concealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    If you carry a pistol with a +10 mag capacity in CA, you will still be guilty of importing a banned firearm. I don't think registration requirements will hold for nonresidents, but you will still have to meet local requirements.

    I see a bit of an increase in Revolver sales if this actually passes.
    My truck has no muffer or cat's, i can drive in cali if i wanted to, so the same might go for guns, just dont sell that clip in cali.
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    There is really no telling how things will play out if the bill actually does get past The Senate and signed into law.

    I agree with those who think there will be very creative attempts made by NYC to circumvent the plain language and intent of the law. That they (and maybe a few others) will try, is no reason to not want the law. First you get the law, then they come up with road blocks, then the courts settle it one way or the other, and in between someone goes to jail or gets a big fine. That's the way it works, like it or not. That's how it works with FOPA.

    OTOH-- we hear few complaints about LEOSA, and folks with that right have not been arrested because their guns weren't registered in NY or NYC or MA. Therefore, I think that practically speaking the specific worry proposed by the OP is a baseless worry.
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    From the NRA-ILA site:

    ". . .H.R. 822, introduced in the U.S. House by Representatives Cliff Stearns (R-Fla.) and Heath Shuler (D-N.C.), allows any person with a valid state-issued concealed firearm permit to carry a concealed firearm in any state that issues concealed firearm permits, or that does not prohibit the carrying of concealed firearms for lawful purposes. . ."

    Would have nothing to do with registration, everything to do with whether the locality issues CCW. Based upon this, I would say IL, NYC, etc. are out.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by jfnixon View Post
    If the Feds decide to impose additional rules on top of existing State laws, they will do it whether or not the Reciprocity Law exists. So I don't think that is a good objection to required reciprocity. A simple requirement for reciprocity, such as exists for a driver's license and a marriage license, doesn't seem to be a dangerous thing to the 2nd Amendment.

    I don't think the licensing of the gun itself matters. After all, I can drive my car in NY even if NY licensing requirements differ from my home state. AIUI, NY couldn't pass a law that said "only autos registered in jurisdictions that equal or exceed NY State requirements for emissions can be driven in the State of NY. Violation is a felony."

    As always, YMMV, IANAL.
    There is no federal requirement for reciprocity concerning drivers' licenses.

    Every state does it voluntarily, but there is no federal requirement to do so.

    I've read the house bill, HR822, and it isn't at all like many in this discussion are hoping it will be.

    This bill has already passed the house, has been sent to the Senate, and will never be allowed by Harry Reid to come to a vote. It's dead in it's present form.

    This has already been pretty well hashed out here;

    HR822 Passes in House

    This bill was passed in the Republican house as a campaign year issue knowing that Reid would kill it so Republicans can say to their constituents that the Democrats killed a gun friendly bill. I'm a hardcore Republican myself, and I don't mind them doing that, but it's pure political theatre with the politically un-savvy as its audience. I'd love it if this issue would bounce McCaskill out of her place as my senator.

    Edit to add: there is also no federal requirement to recognize marriage licenses, gay or straight. There are several states where gay marriage is considered legal that don't have those licenses recognized by a number of other states.

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