lose/lose: you will be fired for breaking policy

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Thread: lose/lose: you will be fired for breaking policy

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    lose/lose: you will be fired for breaking policy

    Here are your choices:

    1. You cannot carry a gun on the job, or you will be fired. But, you might die.
    2. You must comply with armed robber's demands, or you'll be fired. But, you might die anyway.



    or

    1. You do defend yourself with a gun on the job, and you live.... and you are fired.
    2. You do comply with the badguy, and you die anyway...
    3. You do comply, and you live... and you are fired anyway...



    So, carry the damned gun... At least you'll have a chance that you'll live to get another job.

    Here's the Story: Man fired for complying with robber
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Here are your choices:

    1. You cannot carry a gun on the job, or you will be fired. But, you might die.
    2. You must comply with armed robber's demands, or you'll be fired. But, you might die anyway.



    or

    1. You do defend yourself with a gun on the job, and you live.... and you are fired.
    2. You do comply with the badguy, and you die anyway...
    3. You do comply, and you live... and you are fired anyway...



    So, carry the damned gun... At least you'll have a chance that you'll live to get another job.

    Here's the Story: Man fired for complying with robber
    Douglas Moore was not fired for carrying a gun; he was fired for having too much money in the cash register.

    Regardless if what Cumberland Farms did was right or wrong, IMO you cannot tell people to violate the company policy just because you would do it; that is a decision each one has to make on his/her own.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GM View Post
    Douglas Moore was not fired for carrying a gun; he was fired for having too much money in the cash register.
    NO, he was fired for complying with the robber... yes, he had too much money in the register... even the video shows how busy the store is... and he may have only been minutes out of compliance... with hitting the drop safe, due solely to the traffic in the store at the time... Take time to count the money, write it on the envelope for the drop safe, insert money in envelope, drop the envelope. And yes, he violated policy... and yes. rules is rules... but sometimes the rules make no sense.

    Furthermore, the BG got ~$100-150 robbery could just have easily occurred after a customer gave him a fifty... and he was going through procedure, and the badguy walks in... what's he supposed to do... make sure he makes the drop first? then give him the $75 from the register?

    Quote Originally Posted by GM View Post
    Regardless if what Cumberland Farms did was right or wrong, IMO you cannot tell people to ignore the company's policy just because you would do it; that is a decision that each one has to make on his/her own.
    I am not telling anyone what to do... But, I've seen two nice elderly ladies killed in my state recently in a convenience store after complying with the rules. So, they didn't get fired, they got killed.

    I saw a Pharmacist get fired for shooting a badguy,because he violated policy... but he's alive to tell the tale...
    I saw a Kroger employee who may get fired for breaking policy... but he's alive and telling the story.

    So, now, for me.. the odds are 50/50 just on these stories mind you... overall compliance may work... But I don't like the odds... so I'll put it this way....


    If you are working a poverty level paying job in a place that might get robbed, and you can get or have a permit to carry a gun, AND:

    1. It is company policy to comply with armed robbers, failure to do so will get you fired, and doing so MAY get you fired anyway for having too much in the till (do they count coinage, too? If so, most every clerk is "out of spec" at any given time.)
    2. It is company policy that you not carry a gun on premises, doing so will get you fired.

    You must decide whether your life is worth a low paying job.

    And until you need to USE the gun, it will never be an issue. And once it is, and you survive, many other companies will be glad to have you work for them.

    And if you choose not to carry it or use it when you could have/should have... the company will be sure to send flowers to your funeral, and tell the press what a wonderful employee you were and how you will be missed.

    I choose not to die by policy.
    jem102, rgbiker and pfries like this.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

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    I'm torn between one's following company policy and having the ability to save one's own life.
    If NOT illegal, I would probably CC...OMO
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    NO, he was fired for complying with the robber....
    I am confused now.



    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    NO, he was fired for complying with the robber... yes, he had too much money in the register... even the video shows how busy the store is... and he may have only been minutes out of compliance... with hitting the drop safe, due solely to the traffic in the store at the time... Take time to count the money, write it on the envelope for the drop safe, insert money in envelope, drop the envelope. And yes, he violated policy... and yes. rules is rules... but sometimes the rules make no sense.

    Furthermore, the BG got ~$100-150 robbery could just have easily occurred after a customer gave him a fifty... and he was going through procedure, and the badguy walks in... what's he supposed to do... make sure he makes the drop first? then give him the $75 from the register?



    I am not telling anyone what to do... But, I've seen two nice elderly ladies killed in my state recently in a convenience store after complying with the rules. So, they didn't get fired, they got killed.

    I saw a Pharmacist get fired for shooting a badguy,because he violated policy... but he's alive to tell the tale...
    I saw a Kroger employee who may get fired for breaking policy... but he's alive and telling the story.

    So, now, for me.. the odds are 50/50 just on these stories mind you... overall compliance may work... But I don't like the odds... so I'll put it this way....


    If you are working a poverty level paying job in a place that might get robbed, and you can get or have a permit to carry a gun, AND:

    1. It is company policy to comply with armed robbers, failure to do so will get you fired, and doing so MAY get you fired anyway for having too much in the till (do they count coinage, too? If so, most every clerk is "out of spec" at any given time.)
    2. It is company policy that you not carry a gun on premises, doing so will get you fired.

    You must decide whether your life is worth a low paying job.

    And until you need to USE the gun, it will never be an issue. And once it is, and you survive, many other companies will be glad to have you work for them.

    And if you choose not to carry it or use it when you could have/should have... the company will be sure to send flowers to your funeral, and tell the press what a wonderful employee you were and how you will be missed.

    I choose not to die by policy.

    I clearly wrote "Regardless if what Cumberland Farms did was right or wrong …", I do not understand the reason for your explanation about why it was too much money in the cash register.

    And once again, violating the company policy is a decision each one has to make on his/her own; If you have seen things that make you choose "not to die by policy" it is your decision, as well as it is other people’s decision if they want to violate the company policy or not. For that reason, I believe that you can not tell other people “So, carry the damned gun... At least you'll have a chance that you'll live to get another job.”
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm torn between one's following company policy and having the ability to save one's own life.
    If NOT illegal, I would probably CC...OMO
    As I understand, your "company" policy as a teacher pretty much puts the kabosh on your carrying at work. Are you thinking you might want to start anyway? Are you saying you would be OK violating company policy, but not "the law"?

    Most of my work is done in a corporate office with secured access. We also have a "no guns" in the workplace policy. Before getting all worked up about "YOU'RE GONNA DIE AT WORK!" perhaps you should consider the odds.

    For me, I won't violate my company policy. The likelihood I would be exposed carrying (in a bathroom, a personal mistake, an errant touch) far outweighs the likelihood I'll need to defend myself there at work with a firearm. The enconomy sucks, and I would be a middle-aged white guy looking for a new job. If where I worked was that dangerous, I'd get another gig, or retreat to my barricaded compound and peek at everyone through a camera while holding my gun at the ready.

    I gladly accept the odds of simply being unarmed at work. I am in the office only a few days a month, and it's not worth losing my job.
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    Company policy. Employees are nothing but numbers to them.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    . . .So, carry the damned gun... At least you'll have a chance that you'll live to get another job. . .
    Not that simple.

    In your current example, I would agree 100% because:

    1. In that job there is a real chance that you would end up on the wrong side of a BG's weapon at some point; and
    2. Those types of jobs are relatively easy to come by, so getting fired may not be a long-term, family-threatening event.

    But to generalize to all jobs would be wrong. I have chosen not to carry in my current job because:

    1. The odds of being at the wrong side of a BG's gun are orders of magnitude less than in your example; and
    2. I have a high-paying job in a niche market that would be very difficult to replace, especially in this economy. And if I were lucky enough to find another job, it would probably take a long time and would require a move. Definitely a potentially long-term, family-threatening event.

    You may know that there are two current running threads on this topic, and the specific details of the individual's situation make this much less cut and dry than you suggest.

    I respect your opinion, and understand your philosophy, but I do disagree on this one.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm torn between one's following company policy and having the ability to save one's own life.
    If NOT illegal, I would probably CC...OMO
    I understand exactly what you mean. We all are different and for that reason if we want to violate the company policy and risk to lose our job is a decision each one has to make on his/her own. Now, I am assuming that carrying a firearm is not illegal.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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    I write my company's policies

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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    I'm torn between one's following company policy and having the ability to save one's own life.
    If NOT illegal, I would probably CC...OMO
    It's an option worth heavy consideration, depending entirely on your situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by GM View Post

    "NO, he was fired for complying with the robber..."; I am confused now.

    I clearly wrote "Regardless if what Cumberland Farms did was right or wrong …", I do not understand why your explanation about why it was too much money in the cash register.

    And once again, violating the company policy is a decision each one has to make on his/her own; If you have seen things that make you choose "not to die by policy" it is your decision, as well as it is other people’s right to do not violate the company policy. For that reason I believe that you can not tell other people “So, carry the damned gun... At least you'll have a chance that you'll live to get another job.”
    If one is given the choice of living or dying, most seem to have the propensity to the choice of living... in jobs like those of the fired employee, the likelihood of dying is much higher than for most of the rest of us. Following company policy even if unwise and unsafe is a personal decision one must make in taking the job. However, as demonstrated by some recent occurrences: one may violate company policy, defend one's self, lose that job, only to be offered better positions elsewhere.

    Based on that, the wisest choice may very well be to go ahead and carry. As Retsupt is wont to say, OMOYMV.


    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    As I understand, your "company" policy as a teacher pretty much puts the kabosh on your carrying at work. Are you thinking you might want to start anyway? Are you saying you would be OK violating company policy, but not "the law"?

    Most of my work is done in a corporate office with secured access. We also have a "no guns" in the workplace policy. Before getting all worked up about "YOU'RE GONNA DIE AT WORK!" perhaps you should consider the odds.

    For me, I won't violate my company policy. The likelihood I would be exposed carrying (in a bathroom, a personal mistake, an errant touch) far outweighs the likelihood I'll need to defend myself there at work with a firearm. The enconomy sucks, and I would be a middle-aged white guy looking for a new job. If where I worked was that dangerous, I'd get another gig, or retreat to my barricaded compound and peek at everyone through a camera while holding my gun at the ready.

    I gladly accept the odds of simply being unarmed at work. I am in the office only a few days a month, and it's not worth losing my job.
    Those of us who, like myself, have better paying jobs, within secure areas (with little risk of any attack), may consider it more wise to defer from carry while in the workplace than carrying all the time.

    But, dime a dozen jobs that have much higher risk of death warrant the call to "carry the damned gun" anyway, unless you perhaps hope to move upward within the company... but in the case of the OP... I'm reasonably certain that the young man's aspirations for career were not centered around working in a convenience store, as he was paying his way through college with the help of the job.

    I'm not certain of the statistics... but it certainly appears that pizza delivery guys, convenience store clerks, cabbies, and the like, die in greater numbers per capita than LEO, who is carrying a gun and expecting confrontation every day.

    I believe in the right to keep and bear arms if for no other reason than to give the average citizen a fighting chance, against whatever threat may face him, whether from the criminal element, or other.

    But, to answer GM directly: I don't think that my statement to "carry the damned gun" anyway can be taken as a directive bearing any weight. One upon which some poor soul will decide to ruin (or save) his life.
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    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

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    Two things I hope. First, the guy is offered a better job due to the publicity. Second, business drops off for the company who fired him.
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    oakchas, thanks for expanding your viewpoint. Your original post made it sound as if you were advocating carrying regardless of circumstances. I now see that your view is more context-dependent. I totally agree with you.

    Doc

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrclen View Post
    Two things I hope. First, the guy is offered a better job due to the publicity. Second, business drops off for the company who fired him.
    I think both of those things might happen
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    Quote Originally Posted by DocPMD View Post
    oakchas, thanks for expanding your viewpoint. Your original post made it sound as if you were advocating carrying regardless of circumstances. I now see that your view is more context-dependent. I totally agree with you.

    Doc
    Well, in low paying jobs that are high risk... I would find it very difficult to say, "do what they tell you..." Even if it was the first job you could get in several months. My reasoning is this: You haven't been able to get work... no body is hiring "you." The only job you can get is one of these convenience stores/pizza delivery or the like... You take it, you need the money.

    Entry level positions at those places are on the worst shifts and/or in the worst areas, generally. There is usually a "compliance" directive from the company... And, you are told about it, and there may even be signage in the office/behind the counter (out of site of the patronage, if any) to that effect. The reason the rule is so "loudly and frequently" iterated is that the company expects it will happen, or it has already happened.

    If you should elect to carry a concealed weapon (legally of course) while violating company policy, it should remain absolutely, completely concealed. If you should ever need to use it in defense of yourself, you will at least have a fighting chance to survive.

    If you chose to comply, you may or may not survive, but you have no other option at all. Your life is in the hands of another... likely a criminal with drug problems, no conscience, no concern at all for your life or well being. You are a slave to his whim... addled or not... So, if you die, you "die by policy." And there will be no earthly reward for that from your employer for you or your family.

    The likelihood that you will have an opportunity to discover which you should have done is quite high in your tenure in these positions...

    so, I say Carry the damned gun ...At least you'll have a chance that you'll live to get another job.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

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