I feel horrible - Page 3

I feel horrible

This is a discussion on I feel horrible within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Toorop If I own the property then you are welcome upon it provided you follow the rules I have decided upon. Basically ...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    If I own the property then you are welcome upon it provided you follow the rules I have decided upon. Basically it is the authority I have been granted by the law. If I go into your home or place of business and you ask me to leave because you dislike me, well you have the legal right to do so. The same authority that prevents me from having a voodoo ceremony in your living room or having my protest inside your bedroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Just because the law let's you violate someone's property rights doesn't make it right. I would want to control my property and I follow the golden rule. When you carry knowingly against the wishes of the property owner you are lying and I was raised to believe that lying is a sin. Maybe it is just my good Christian upbringing that makes me think as I do.
    So the law is right when you agree with it but otherwise it's wrong? Your logic is illogical. A Residence is different than a business.

    If you own or run a business you agreed to operate it under the regulations and laws set forth to regulate it under your business license. While it remains private property you gave up certain rights as to its control in order to solicit business from the public for profit.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by M203Sniper View Post
    Congratulations,

    You are the enemy.

    As a first responder you have violated a constitutional right because of a company policy.
    Here's something for you to refresh yourself. Oath Keepers Blog Archive Declaration Of Orders We Will Not Obey
    In Wisconsin, the person carrying was violating the law, not mearly company policy. Posting carrys the weight of law here. Maybe you should refresh yourself on applicable laws before accusing him of being the enemy.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by M203Sniper View Post
    Congratulations,

    You are the enemy.

    As a first responder you have violated a constitutional right because of a company policy.
    Here's something for you to refresh yourself. Oath Keepers Blog Archive Declaration Of Orders We Will Not Obey
    Thank you, although by technicalities I'm not a "First Responder", I am more than that. Just needed a little kick in the rear. Thanks M203!

    Quote Originally Posted by vista461 View Post
    In Wisconsin, the person carrying was violating the law, not mearly company policy. Posting carrys the weight of law here. Maybe you should refresh yourself on applicable laws before accusing him of being the enemy.
    However, I do agree with you 100% vista that i was "enforceing" the law. But M203Sniper was right on a bigger aspect.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jerp View Post
    I should do that, but its the stupid organization i work for either that or drop the money and get my armed license and work some place else.
    I would urge you to seek employment elsewhere. Just my opinion but, "unarmed security" seems a lot like a way to say "when he gets shot we will know who the bad guy is".

    Plus it doesn't pay that well. Find something else to do for a living.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by M203Sniper View Post
    That concept is so outrageous it is as bad as a lie.

    The government can't stop me from exercising my right to vote but two guys standing outside the polling place can charge me a "tax" because of my affiliation or appearance?



    You don't understand the difference between private property and a public accommodation.
    It's not the Government involved here it's a private property. It's not public accommodation. It's a private property. Yes you can be stopped from voting - if you decide you must fill-in your absentee ballot in my living room - . It's private property.

    Your sense of your "Rights" is tyrannical.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    If I own the property then you are welcome upon it provided you follow the rules I have decided upon. Basically it is the authority I have been granted by the law. If I go into your home or place of business and you ask me to leave because you dislike me, well you have the legal right to do so. The same authority that prevents me from having a voodoo ceremony in your living room or having my protest inside your bedroom.
    There is a major difference in the law between private property which is not open to the public and business property to which the general public is invited to enter and do business.

    There are major limits to the rules you can set on property which is open to the general public for business purposes. Not so for truly private property, like a home.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toorop View Post
    Just because the law let's you violate someone's property rights doesn't make it right. I would want to control my property and I follow the golden rule. When you carry knowingly against the wishes of the property owner you are lying and I was raised to believe that lying is a sin. Maybe it is just my good Christian upbringing that makes me think as I do.
    I have to disagree with you. Here in Florida, such signage carries no weight under the law. The property owner has no more right to know what I have under my clothing that he/she would to know what sort of underwear their customers are wearing.

    As far as lying, no question has been asked, and no lie told in response. At worst, this would constitute standing mute when questioned - which isn't any form of sin I am aware of.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    I have to disagree with you. Here in Florida, such signage carries no weight under the law. The property owner has no more right to know what I have under my clothing that he/she would to know what sort of underwear their customers are wearing.

    As far as lying, no question has been asked, and no lie told in response. At worst, this would constitute standing mute when questioned - which isn't any form of sin I am aware of.

    Matt
    Dang, do what ya want. But don't try to rationalize it. I lie by omission is still a lie. You are going against the wishes of the property owner. Like I said,I really don't care but just say "screw it, I am going to do what I want." At least you will intellectually honest with yourself.
    I am sure if you are married your wife would like logic if you are cheating on her. If she doesn't specifically ask you it is ok.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Dang, do what ya want. But don't try to rationalize it. I lie by omission is still a lie. You are going against the wishes of the property owner. Like I said,I really don't care but just say "screw it, I am going to do what I want." At least you will intellectually honest with yourself.
    I am being completely intellectually honest with myself. The law in Florida does not permit a business owner from excluding those who are lawfully carrying firearms from their business simply by posting a sign.

    I am sure the property owner wishes me to buy something expensive every time I go into their store. Am I "lying" to them when I don't find what I want and leave without making a purchase?

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I am sure if you are married your wife would like logic if you are cheating on her. If she doesn't specifically ask you it is ok.
    Completely different situation, as I suspect you well know. I am not sure if you are deliberately trying to be insulting here, or just managing it by accident.

    Pray tell, did you ever take a vow not to enter a business lawfully carrying a firearm? If not, your analogy completely fails.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    I am being completely intellectually honest with myself. The law in Florida does not permit a business owner from excluding those who are lawfully carrying firearms from their business simply by posting a sign.

    I am sure the property owner wishes me to buy something expensive every time I go into their store. Am I "lying" to them when I don't find what I want and leave without making a purchase?



    I am not sure if you are deliberately trying to be insulting here, or just managing it by accident.

    Pray tell, did you ever take a vow not to enter a business lawfully carrying a firearm? If not, your analogy completely fails.

    Matt
    Poor analogy, no insult. If it were an insult you would know LOL But You can twist words all you want about the legality of it. You KNOW the owner does not want firearms there. YOU have a choice to go in or not go in. You are not being excluded like someone of race.creeed, sex. You have the option of respecting their wishes and putting your firearm in your car. He is excluding your firearm. I do not know why people feel they are being dsicriminated when it comes to this issue.
    And your analogy about not buying something and leaving is lying is terrible. Theowner wants you to buy something and he knows by posting a sign you might not shop there. So I don't know why you even care.
    Basically just say "I am going to do what I want and I really don't care". Because that is your atitude.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Poor analogy, no insult. If it were an insult you would know LOL But You can twist words all you want about the legality of it. You KNOW the owner does not want firearms there. YOU have a choice to go in or not go in. You are not being excluded like someone of race.creeed, sex. You have the option of respecting their wishes and putting your firearm in your car. He is excluding your firearm. I do not know why people feel they are being dsicriminated when it comes to this issue.
    It isn't discrimination, in the legal sense. Anyone claiming it is doesn't understand the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    And your analogy about not buying something and leaving is lying is terrible. Theowner wants you to buy something and he knows by posting a sign you might not shop there. So I don't know why you even care.
    Basically just say "I am going to do what I want and I really don't care". Because that is your atitude.
    The owner has expressed a wish that I not do something I am entitled to do by law in his store. He also wishes that I buy something expensive when I come in his store.

    Why do you believe not fulfilling one wish is OK and the other is some great affront?
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    It isn't discrimination, in the legal sense. Anyone claiming it is doesn't understand the law.



    The owner has expressed a wish that I not do something I am entitled to do by law in his store. He also wishes that I buy something expensive when I come in his store.

    Why do you believe not fulfilling one wish is OK and the other is some great affront?
    This is my last post on this. We just dis agree. You are going to do what you want no matter what the owner desires.

    Why do you believe not fulfilling one wish is OK and the other is some great affront?
    Do you know how silly that sounds? Again, he already has an understanding that he might lose customers because of the no gun policy. There is no affront if you do not shop there. There is an affront by bypassing his wishes. So that does not even make sense.
    You are the same type of person that would go to someones house with a weapon even if you knew they did not like guns in their house. You are so wrapped up equating the owner wants you to buy something with his desire for you not to have weapons. I am not getting wrapped up in your ridiculous circular logic. You are a grown man. You do what ya want.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    You are the same type of person that would go to someones house with a weapon even if you knew they did not like guns in their house. You are so wrapped up equating the owner wants you to buy something with his desire for you not to have weapons. I am not getting wrapped up in your ridiculous circular logic. You are a grown man. You do what ya want.
    It's probably good that was your last post, as you seem to have decided to stop discussing the topic and instead delve into personal attacks.

    And for the record, you are completely wrong in your claim about someone's home. That's come up before in one of the other 10,000 threads on this, and I've clearly stated I would not do so.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  14. #44
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    It wasn't a personal attack and if you said that about a persons house then I apologize. But, now I am curious. Why do you afford the homeowner the respect of no guns but not a store owner?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    It wasn't a personal attack and if you said that about a persons house then I apologize. But, now I am curious. Why do you afford the homeowner the respect of no guns but not a store owner?
    One invites the public at large into their property for commercial purposes and the other invites specific individuals into their property individually.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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