lots of malfunctions

This is a discussion on lots of malfunctions within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by highonroof Hi everyone, Yesterday I took my CCL class. One thing that really struck me strange was the amount of malfunctions I ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highonroof View Post
    Hi everyone,

    Yesterday I took my CCL class. One thing that really struck me strange was the amount of malfunctions I saw while we were on the range.

    After the time spent on the range, I casually asked 2/4 people I saw with gun problems, if that was the gun they intended on carrying. They both said yes. These were not cheap guns either, names are not needed because I can't say that it was the guns fault. I would be led to believe that it was a maintenance issues.

    Another thing that I noticed was that everyone was taking their time with discharging their weapon, as if it was a test of marksmanship. Seriously, the paper is 3-5 yards away, point and shoot. The purpose of the range time was to put lead down range, we were not being scored.

    So to summarize my thoughts for yesterday ....... there are many people out there with CCL's that are not comfortable with firing their weapon and many do not know how to properly maintain their weapons. I think just as important as all the rules of safety, people need to train in other aspects as well. They need to be be able to fire their weapon as if it is natural and they need to take good care of it so it goes bang when needed.

    Dave
    I bet none of um were revolvers.....
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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    I'd say that in the OP's story, the stoppages were due to new guns that have not been cleaned since they came out of the box, have not had their 200 rounds of recommended break in, and a new shooter that was probably limp wristing the gun.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I bet none of um were revolvers.....
    In one training session I was conducting, I had two out of five revolvers go down with catastrophic (that is, couldn't be fixed in the field) malfunctions. One S&W Model 19 and one Ruger SP101. Revolvers do fail, and when they fail, the often fail HARD.

    That is not to say, of course, that revolvers fail MORE OFTEN than autos, just that the myth that a revolver canNOT fail is just that - a myth.
    gottabkiddin likes this.
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  5. #19
    Member Array GunByte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I bet none of um were revolvers.....
    Just read about a NYCPD report from the 90's. In about 30,000 cases of revolver shootings over a period of time no, jams were reported. They switched to semi autos and they cannot say the same. :)

    I bought 24 guns over the last two years in search of the perfect carry guns. I have two J-Frames that are not ammo fussy and never jam despite a lot of rounds through them. Half of the semi autos I bought were traded in or sold due to not being comfortable to carry or not a good fit for my hand. Most of the other half either jammed out of the box. I have had bad Sigs, Glocks, Springfields, Colts, Rugers and Remingtons so even the top brands can fail despite their advertising and slogans. :) All were confirmed as gun problems by the dealer who sold them to me. This is just in a two year period. Currently I own 4 autos that have yet to jam. A Glock 23 Gen3, my second LCP, Colt New Agent .45 and Sig P220. I also own a Colt Defender (jammed until I had work done to the feed ramp and switched to a polymer filled hollow point), my Sig P238 (had to be repaired to work) and PM9 which failed on the last of the break in rounds but good with polymer filled JHP for the next two hundred rounds. I do not carry these guns with as much confidence as I do my revolvers. Over time my experience has been that if a semi auto has not jammed it is because I have not fired it enough. :)

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I bet none of um were revolvers.....
    Probably not. In Oklahoma, unless things have changed, if you qualify with a derringer, a derringer is the only thing you can carry. If you qualify with a revolver, you can carry a revolver or a derringer. If you qualify with a semi automatic, you can carry any of the three. To qualify with anything other than a semi automatic you handicap yourself. If you want to upgrade to semi automatic later you have to take the class again.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivoire View Post
    My wife and parents are taking the CCW class at Gander, they require 30 shots on the paper to pass. 15 at 15yrds & 15 at 21yrds with a reload at each distance.

    On the malfunctions, I took an ICE defensive pistol class sending 200-300 shots down range - same thing with malfunctions, but mostly shooters with the 'pretty' looking (some very expensive) guns.
    I can't say it was the gun either, but fatigue or maintenance of the gun would be my guess as well.
    Is this a state requirement or Gander Mountain requirement? If a Gander Mountain requirement, I'd find somewhere else to take the class. 45 and 63 feet are way outside the normal distances for defensive shooting. In 99% of cases, if the BG is at those distances you have time to clear out before it comes to a shooting situation.
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    Member Array TVille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Is this a state requirement or Gander Mountain requirement? If a Gander Mountain requirement, I'd find somewhere else to take the class. 45 and 63 feet are way outside the normal distances for defensive shooting. In 99% of cases, if the BG is at those distances you have time to clear out before it comes to a shooting situation.
    I'm pretty sure the OP meant 5 and 7 yards, which is the 15 and 21 feet quoted.

  9. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnivoire View Post
    My wife and parents are taking the CCW class at Gander, they require 30 shots on the paper to pass. 15 at 15yrds & 15 at 21yrds with a reload at each distance.

    On the malfunctions, I took an ICE defensive pistol class sending 200-300 shots down range - same thing with malfunctions, but mostly shooters with the 'pretty' looking (some very expensive) guns.
    I can't say it was the gun either, but fatigue or maintenance of the gun would be my guess as well.
    Texas requires a proficiency test and it is graded. You don't pass, you don't get your CHL. But unless you are legally blind, you will pass. Everyone on my class passed, even a couple that did not owned a gun and had never shot before.

    test requirements here: Texas CHL Range Proficiency

    Scoring here: Texas CHL About Scoring

  10. #24
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    After reading what some states require for issuance of a CHL, I realize how easy it was for me in VA. I don't think that's really a good thing. I'd like to think that here in my state, most people became as obsessed as I did in my thirst for knowledge beforehand in every aspect. It is a bit scary to think that a VA resident can get a permit without ever having fired a gun.

    So far my XD9 has had zero malfunctions in over 600 rounds.

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    Welcome from Michigan!!

    I would mostly agree with you Highonroof.


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  12. #26
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    Train like you fight, fight like you train. If you're going to carry, you better practice. BUT you have to practice correctly. It doesn't do any good to practice poor technique.

    Good possibility that the malfunctions were a combination of poor maintanence and unfamililarity with the weapon.

    Congrats on taking the class! Good luck & stay safe.
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    I had a guy in the permit class I took who had just picked up his G19 the day before - never even shot it. Right out of the box It would not cycle a new round...he had to shoot, rack, shoot, rack. We did about 24 rounds at 15 feet, 16 rounds at 25 feet, & 6 at 50 feet. He had a miserable time shooting...
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array jblives2ride's Avatar
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    I carry everywhere legally allowed, shoot many different guns and average about 200-300 rounds shoot every other weekend and like you I know several CHL that never shoot except when required to renew. But, if you can point and pull a trigger in most self defense cases you'll win... You have to have the mindset of you or them to come out alive. A trick I was taught was holster your gun, put dummy ammo in it and draw infront of a full size mirror aiming for center mass 10-15 times each day for a couple of week, make sure you're pulling the trigger. It gives you a real human target and helps get you into a quicker draw where your not looking at numbers on a target..I also agree that maintenance is the key, every CHL Class should have a maintenace section to show those that don't know how and what to do to keep their guns functioning correctly.

  15. #29
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    I'll be danged. I just wrote an article for our club newsletter about this very thing.

    In it I mentioned that many people carry a handgun for their own protection or that of their loved ones, yet they accept a handgun that is less than 100 percent as being OK.
    Its a good bet that if you shoot your handgun at the range to qualify for a CHL and you cant make it through a magazine without some sort of failure then it is very likely that it will malfunction when you need it the most.

    Looking at the problem from a different perspective, how many of us would step on to a jet that has a 95% record of flight safety? How about a 97% percent on a score card for maintenance practices on that same jet? For those of us that live close by to Nuclear Plants, how about tolerating a 98 percent record of safe operation? That 2% margin of error could really reduce your property value if it happened to come up.

    How about choosing a Doctor that ony screws up 3 percent of the time? All of a sudden that less than perfect record doesn't look so good does it?

    Most people wouldn't fly on an aircraft, live by a Nuclear Plant or tolerate a doctor that wasn't perfect yet they tolerate a handgun that is less than perfect that they may have to defend themselves or their loved ones with.

    It just doesn't make sense.
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Superhouse 15's Avatar
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    I have watched what passes for "qualification" for both permits and for the security guard applicants that shoot at the range where I work. Disturbing, but....

    Do we really want to mandate that it be harder to get a permit? Maybe we can trust the BATFE to set some reasonable standards for qualifications.
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