lots of malfunctions
This is a discussion on lots of malfunctions within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi everyone,
Yesterday I took my CCL class. One thing that really struck me strange was the amount of malfunctions I saw while we were ...
January 23rd, 2012 10:19 AM
lots of malfunctions
Yesterday I took my CCL class. One thing that really struck me strange was the amount of malfunctions I saw while we were on the range.
After the time spent on the range, I casually asked 2/4 people I saw with gun problems, if that was the gun they intended on carrying. They both said yes. These were not cheap guns either, names are not needed because I can't say that it was the guns fault. I would be led to believe that it was a maintenance issues.
Another thing that I noticed was that everyone was taking their time with discharging their weapon, as if it was a test of marksmanship. Seriously, the paper is 3-5 yards away, point and shoot. The purpose of the range time was to put lead down range, we were not being scored.
So to summarize my thoughts for yesterday ....... there are many people out there with CCL's that are not comfortable with firing their weapon and many do not know how to properly maintain their weapons. I think just as important as all the rules of safety, people need to train in other aspects as well. They need to be be able to fire their weapon as if it is natural and they need to take good care of it so it goes bang when needed.
January 23rd, 2012 10:28 AM
Not sure about Oklahoma but here in my state of WV if you take the class offered by the Sheriff, you use .38spl revolvers and just one semi auto to shoot. They provide the handguns and applicants pay for the ammuniton used. They stress the importance of shooting, not trying to hit the target each and every time. WV law requires that the applicant only "shoot" a handgun, not punch holes in the bullseye. Yet when my wife when to shoot, she drilled the target at each station. She fired at least 30 rounds and never missed. She was the only one I believe who did not miss any target. Some came close with one or two outside humanform target.
The Sheriff of our County actually conducted the class outside of the range and then when they were there, he went over handgun maintainence, how to dissassemble a revolver and a semi auto, how to clean, reassemble, eliminate stove pipes and the whole 9 yards. It was a very informative and educational class and even though I had recieved my permit under another Sheriff, I really learned a lot by accompaning my wife to the range.
However they did have a couple of people who were so inept at handling a firearm, it was really scary to know these folks might be packing one someday.
"A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"
The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green
January 23rd, 2012 10:28 AM
Most malfunctions are shooter induced and only a very small percentage will ever do more than the mandatory minimum. Most of those who survive a deadly force encounter do so out of dumb luck.
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammunition
January 23rd, 2012 10:30 AM
There are a lot of people out there who will only ever buy one gun, make one range trip, and think they are prepared. Sad but true.
As for taking their sweet time, at a lot of CC class it is encouraged. The instructors don't want to have to fail someone because they couldn't hit the paper. Not sure if qualification is a requirement where you are, but here making sure your shots are on target is more important than just sending lead down range.
January 23rd, 2012 10:39 AM
Your experience is not uncommon. From an instructors perspective, I see guns fail or people who can't run their guns all the time. And no it doesn't matter what name is on the slide.
At the end of each class I have them watch a video about a watchmaker, and tell them that the piece of plastic they get back from the state should be a starting point for each of them. They need to practice and learn how to run their gun, figure out carry methods and get in the mindset that they will need if they ever have to use their gun. My class just makes them legal, and a little more prepared, it certainly doesn't make them ready.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
January 23rd, 2012 10:56 AM
My wife and parents are taking the CCW class at Gander, they require 30 shots on the paper to pass. 15 at 15yrds & 15 at 21yrds with a reload at each distance.
Originally Posted by jlately
On the malfunctions, I took an ICE defensive pistol class sending 200-300 shots down range - same thing with malfunctions, but mostly shooters with the 'pretty' looking (some very expensive) guns.
I can't say it was the gun either, but fatigue or maintenance of the gun would be my guess as well.
Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
January 23rd, 2012 11:03 AM
I did not see many malfunctions but I did see a bunch of people who could not shoot a group. At 21 they had rounds all over the place, looked more like shotgun at 25 yards.
January 23rd, 2012 11:31 AM
limp wristing a dry gun is a sure way to make it fail.
best $5 to spend is on a can of rem oil.
most semi's like to run wet.
slide back---a short spray on the rails, both sides, and a drop on the exposed top of the bbl
slide foward, a squirt into where the bbl chamber meets the slide at 11 o'clock.
not so wet that it gets on your hands or holster,
repeat every 100 rounds or so.
some new finishes are built-in-slippery. YMMV
You plug 'em, I plant 'em
...kid can't read at 17 (Garcia/Hunter 1985)
Lack of preparation on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine
January 23rd, 2012 11:31 AM
I think a key point that is missing from this discussion so far is that a lot of these malfunctions are with NEW handguns bought for the first time CC shooter. All firearms need a break in period. New sidearm, new shooter, bound to be hiccups. I had a new compact that would stovepipe everything except ball until I put 300 rounds through it.
New Hampshire CCL
January 23rd, 2012 11:53 AM
Most malfunctions I've seen result from improper grip, limp wrist, or loose shoulder. Sometimes it's ammo, recoil spring, magazine, or roughness in a new pistol that can cause a stoppage. Inaccuracy can be caused by poor trigger management, lack of concentrating focus on the front sight, looking over the rear sight, and anticipation. In the limited time of a basic permit class, an instructor faces many challenges: to inspire a positive mindset; to encourage continuing study; and to get student commitments to practice. Safety, mechanics, maintenance, and the laws are important, but instinct-snap-point shooting, use of cover, tactics, and strategy should be included. No discussion of self defense is complete without mention of legal, financial, mental, and emotional protections. While some instructors may have students shoot many rounds from a 9mm or better while moving and from cover, these exercises may be saved for advanced classes. If little, old grandma can enjoy shooting a 22 and hit a piece of typing paper at five yards, she may have the confidence to decide to get to the next level. Stoppages should be addressed immediately by an instructor; their cause and cure found right there, if possible. Negative comments or questions from other students are counterproductive. The world isn't perfect, and sometimes we just have to be a good witness.
Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776
Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
-Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95
January 23rd, 2012 12:27 PM
Unfortunately not all classes teach trigger control, proper sight picture or allow enough practice to get acustom to recoil. Michigan has a target requirement but it isn't so strict as to prevent someone that has no previous experience from qualifying. The instructors I had in my class said that they would stay and work as long as neccesary to make sure every student qualified. If I remember correctly it was 15 out of 30 rounds on target in the acceptable 8" area at 7 yards. No mention was made of where the other 15 rounds could end up.
Originally Posted by gunthorp
January 23rd, 2012 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by claude clay
Shall not be infringed means - shall not be infringed.
Member - NRA
January 23rd, 2012 01:14 PM
40+ years of experience here and you have learned what I know already. Semi autos do jam for man made, ammo or mechanical reasons despite the impression of perfection or reliability many of the manufacturers seek to project and the many claims to the contrary. Start competiting and you will see see guns, even expensive and guns advertised as reliable, jam at every match and I am talking about the stock division which I used to shoot on a regional level. Much more chance to do or have something happen when you are shooting for time and under a little stress. Attend a high round training course and see the same thing. Heard more than one person say that this is the first time their gun jammed. There is a reason I was first taught the Tap, Rack, Bang drill until it is second nature to me. :) I personally carry a Snub Nose but that is a topic for another time.
As for the concealed carry classes it is understandable. I used to train people in an industry not related to guns. What I learned is that people have short attention spans and do not want to spend a lot of money to get trained unless it is legally required. To stay in business we had to condense our 2 and most 3 day classes into 1 day, lower the price to a point that people were willing to pay, and pass everyone by giving open book tests. It is the same for concealed carry classes. I know some concealed carriers that have only shot their carry guns once in their life and do not use a holster and never heard of gun belts. Most do not know much about ballistics or bullet types and will use and carry whatever is the cheapest. Sad but true and hard to believe by people who frequent gun forums like this as the ones here are much more interested in guns than those that do not even know gun forums exist. Like the LEO who is not into guns and considers his just one more tool to carry on his belt, so it is the same for most civilians.
January 23rd, 2012 02:26 PM
People new to semi-autos often 'limp-wrist' it.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
January 23rd, 2012 02:26 PM
I'm a fan of training, but I'm not obsessive about it, and I certainly wouldn't be arrogant enough to say "everybody" needs it before they can carry a gun. I see semi-autos that malfunction at the range more often than I'd have thought I would. Most of them are 1911's with short barrels - those cute little puppies can be fussy eaters.
A big percentage of the stories in "The Good, Bad, and Ugly" forum about successful self defense encounters, at least in home invasions, the shooter has way less experience and training than we are lead to believe is necessary, or it is popular to believe is necessary. In the last two or three months there was the old lady that loaded and fired her recently purchased revolver for the first time to take down an invader. The young mother in OK who successfully defended herself and her son with an old double barrel she wasn't even sure would go off (You can see from the pictures she's right handed, left eyed, and held it with her head tilted way over to use her left eye, but she still got it done with a handgun hanging from a support hand finger in case the thing didn't go off). There was one really tension filled 911 tape last year or the year before by a woman hiding in a closet while a stalker ex-boyfriend smashed his way toward her bedroom door. She was clutching a 9mm semi auto that had been loaned to her a day or two before (don't know if she had ever fired it or not) and used it to good effect when he broke into the closet where she was hiding. Recently there was the girl that was attacked and somehow managed to get her gun out of the center console of her car and successfully defend herself. And there were others. Many of them women who exhibited incredible calm under pressure. The point is, while training is better than no training, it isn't any substitute for keeping one's head when the SHTF.
What all the successful encounters had in common was a commitment to survive, an awareness that something was going on, and having the will to stay focused until the situation was resolved. I think the commitment to survive is in a tie with situational awareness for most important. Neither one is worth much with out the other.
I suppose the reason accuracy doesn't matter as much as one might think is because 8 out of 10 self defense situations are resolved with no shots fired, and most of the ones where shot are fired are at such close range. There was one recently where the perp got out of Dodge when the lady came down stairs racking a round into a 12ga pump. Not something to plan on, but it worked then and it's worked countless times before, some documented, some not.
Training is better than no training most of the time, but nothing is better than having decided to survive before the encounter happens.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken
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