Posted businesses in Arkansas

[dwpa]

I already posted this question in another (unrelated) thread, but thought I might get more responses if I gave it it's own thread:

The Arkansas state code outlining prohibited places makes use of quotation marks when it states that businesses have the right to prohibit carry. Specifically:

(b)(1)(A) In addition to a place enumerated in this section, the carrying of a concealed handgun may be disallowed in any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet (10') that "carrying a handgun is prohibited".

Does this mean that the sign itself has to state "carrying a handgun is prohibited" specifically, or that those stupid pictures of a gun in a circle with a line through it are binding? What do you guys think? I know in (i think) Texas, what the sign has to say to be legally binding is very specific. Does anyone know if it's the same way in Arkansas? I would think it would be if they bothered to put the quotation marks into the law. They don't usually bother to do that without a reason, right?

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[DizTbone]

I couldn't find any appellate decisions from the Arkansas Court of Appeals or Supreme Court on this section. The decisions of Circuit Courts are not usually published as they do not establish precedent binding on other courts in that Circuit or in the State.

I don't recall any discussion of signage requirements in my CCW class...but, then again, the Prosecutor spent most of his time trying to deter one couple in particular from shooting in less-than-justifiable situations. I'll e-mail a detective friend. Maybe, in the mean time, HotGuns will weigh in.

Michael

[lowflyer]

Sorry I don't know the answer to your question specifically. However, I think not carrying in a place that has any sign asking you not to is just a safe bet regardless of the specific wording. In KS it's a class B misdemeanor to carry in a business that is posted. There are specific requirements for the sign, but I don't think it would be worth the trouble trying to prove that the sign was not legal. A judge might get pissed at you.

[HotGuns]

by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet (10') that "carrying a handgun is prohibited".

That verbage allows any owner to say pretty much whatever he pleases pertaining to the carry of concealed weapons. The only criteria that I am currently aware of is that the person of average eyesight must be able to read it from 10 feet away. As long as the INTENT is met any sign is legal.

Does this mean that the sign itself has to state "carrying a handgun is prohibited" specifically, or that those stupid pictures of a gun in a circle with a line through it are binding? What do you guys think?

Those stupid pictures with the gun with a circle through it clearly meet the intent. We both know that the owner dosent want your buisness and it would be clear to any LEO that guns are prohibited there.

I know in (i think) Texas, what the sign has to say to be legally binding is very specific. Does anyone know if it's the same way in Arkansas? I would think it would be if they bothered to put the quotation marks into the law. They don't usually bother to do that without a reason, right?

Texas does have specific criteria that a sign must meet, otherwise it's not legally binding. Arkansas does not have those restrictions. The only restriction is that the sign must be big enough to be read from 10 feet.

Understand that I am not a laywer and it could be argued that the law MUST say no more or less than the statute says...buts whats the point? If the owner of a business feels endangered by me or you carrying something that he cant see, that is his perogative. It is our perogative to give someone else our money.

Then there is the "intent" of the law issue that always throws a fly into the ointment. IF you see the gun sign with the red slash through it at an entrance to a store, could you or any citizen articluate to a Judge or Jury that you didnt understand what it meant ? I think not.

As far as I know this issue hasnt been tested yet in court yet...and it may never be. Fortunatley, we dont see them much up our way.

This is my somewhat informed opinoin. Of the other dozen or so instructors that I associate with and teach with on occasion, this seems to be the general concensous after much discussion and some dialogue with the A.S.P.

Others opinions may vary. Even so, Im thinking that if the average LEO is made aware that you are carrying in a place that has a sign against it, ANY sign, he WILL side with property owner in this case...and in reality, thats what counts at the time.

[Nytewolf1979]

From what I have read in other threads about Mall postings and what the followups were, if the signs don't comply in every single aspect, then they mean nothing.

If I remember right, this came from a police officer the gentleman was asking. And it also makes sense. If all the rules aren't followed, then you can't expect people to abide by the sign.

But you should definitely call a lawyer or a PD and ask what all the stipulations are and if all of them aren't met, does that render the sign useless.

Here in GA, the signs mean nothing. They carry no legal bearing. If made in one of those places, they can only ask you to leave. Now if you don't, then you can be charged with trespassing.

[HotGuns]

From what I have read in other threads about Mall postings and what the followups were, if the signs don't comply in every single aspect, then they mean nothing.

In some cases that is true, but you need to remember that each state has is own specific requirements that must be met.

Saaying that you read something on the internet about something is not a defense for screwing up if you happen to get caught.

What I state as far as the law, to the best of my knowledge ONLY applies in Arkansas.where I am certified. It does not apply to any other state.

[farronwolf]

Does this mean that the sign itself has to state "carrying a handgun is prohibited" specifically, or that those stupid pictures of a gun in a circle with a line through it are binding? What do you guys think? I know in (i think) Texas, what the sign has to say to be legally binding is very specific. Does anyone know if it's the same way in Arkansas? I would think it would be if they bothered to put the quotation marks into the law. They don't usually bother to do that without a reason, right?[/QUOTE]

In Texas the statute clearly states that the wording must be exact, quoting the 30.06 section of the code.

In Arkansas it is not that clear. If you call the Arkansas State Police, which I have, and ask them, they will tell you that if it is a sign that is clearly conveying that they do not want a handgun in the building, (gunbuster sign included) you should not carry the gun into the building, leave it in the car.

However if you are going to an Arkansas State Park, and upon entering the state park see a sign that says no firearms, no killing devices, etc. ignore them and continue. There is a specific regulation concerning carrying in Arkansas State Parks that one needs to refer to. This regulation clearly says that you cannot carry into any State Park building, marina, and some other places, and many of these places use gun buster signs, and others that do not quote the code exactly.

So, if the building owner puts up a gunbuster sign or whatever, I leave my pistol in the car, or don't go into the building.

[riversdaddy]

to me, the fact that it is in quatations in the legal code means it must say that specifically. That is What my CCW instructor taught me, and he was a police officer in Arkansas for quite some time.

[HotGuns]

Just to avoid any misconceptions I will post the restrictions of carry. This is where you can not tote. This comes directly from the AR. State Police website and this is what is taught in every CWP class.

Where Concealed Handguns are Prohibited

It is a violation of the Arkansas Concealed Handgun License law to carry a concealed handgun into any of the locations listed below:


Any police, sheriff or Arkansas State Police office. Arkansas Highway Police facility.

Detention facility, prison or jail. Courthouse or courtroom.

Any polling place.

Meeting place of any government entity.

Meeting place of any session of the Arkansas General Assembly or committee of the General Assembly.

Any athletic event not related to firearms competition in which the license holder is participating.

Any part or section of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, except a restaurant.

Any part of section of an establishment in which alcohol is consumed on the premises, except a restaurant.

Any school, college, community college, or university campus building or school/college event unless the event is for the purpose of participating in an authorized firearms related activity.

Inside the passenger terminal of any airport, unless the handgun is encased for shipment by lawful transportation.

Any church or other place of worship.

Any place where the possession of firearms is prohibited by federal law.

Any place where a property owner or manager has exercised discretion to prohibit the possession of a firearm.

Participating in a parade or demonstration for which a permit is required.

At a private residence without having first advised the occupants that the license holder is carrying a concealed weapon and given the permission to carry the handgun.

Notice the bold (my emphasis).One might notice that it covers a pretty broad spectrum with little limiting factor.

I dont really care what anyone "thinks" about the law and how it should be interpreted. What matters is the the INTENT of the law. If you want to be the first test case for interpretation, thats up to you. If anyone here thinks that those little "quotation marks" will matter if you get caught carrying where a sign is clearly displayed and the intent has been met, then there is nothing more that I can say.

However if you are going to an Arkansas State Park, and upon entering the state park see a sign that says no firearms, no killing devices, etc. ignore them and continue

As a matter of fact, some parks are posted and some are not. Ignoring the signs on the ones that are could not only get you thrown in jail, but if it happens you will lose your permit for a license related weapons infraction.

Telling someone to "ignore" them is not exactly the best advice.

[lowflyer]

If this didn't say "any firearms," I would assume anything but a wheelgun would be okay.

[farronwolf]

Here is the Park Directive for Arkansas for everyone to read.

Here is the link also.
http://www.sos.arkansas.gov/election...ate%20parks%22


Effective Until Superseded - 1 - PD 3070

ARKANSAS DEPARTMENT OF PARKS AND TOURISM DIVISION OF STATE PARKS

December 5, 2003 Park Directive 3070

FIREARMS, EXPLOSIVES, AND FIREWORKS
I. USE OF FIREARMS - The public display of any firearm is prohibited.
A. Persons displaying or discharging firearms may be ejected from the park (see exceptions in Section III and IV); and/or
B. Firearms may be confiscated (with a receipt given) to be returned to owner upon departure from the park; and /or
C. Unlawful use and/or careless handling will result in criminal arrest and prosecution.

II. CONCEALED HANDGUNS
Act 1110 of 2003 was enacted to permit persons to carry a concealed handgun into a public park. Section 1 addresses places in which concealed handguns are not allowed. Among the list of places are “any building wherein a state office is located” and “schools”. See also Arkansas Statute 5-73-306.
A. For Arkansas State Parks, these buildings include:
The Bladesmith School at Old Washington
DeGray Lake Resort Lodge and Convention Center
Maintenance Buildings
Marina Sales Offices
Mather Lodge
Museum Buildings with Offices
Ozark Folk Center Lodge Office, Recreation Room, and Gift Shop
All Restaurants / Cafes
Queen Wilhelmina Lodge
Visitor Information Centers.
Effective Until Superseded - 2 - PD 3070
B. Signs or decals will be posted at the locations listed above indicating that “carrying of a handgun is prohibited”. These will be distributed by the Manager of Operations.
C. Persons carrying a concealed handgun must keep it secure and out of sight and must also have in possession the license as well as valid photo identification. The license must be made available to law enforcement officers upon request (Arkansas Statute 5-73-315).
D. Excluding law enforcement officers, loaded firearms of any type are prohibited in state parks located on Corps of Engineers property
(Ref: Title 36 CFR 327.13).

III. SPORTS / HUNTING FIREARMS
Persons “on a journey” may have firearms on state property (Arkansas Statute
5-73-120). However, while on state park / museum property, firearms must
be kept unloaded and in a locking device or in a locked vehicle at all times.
The only exception to this rule will be during specified hunting seasons and in designated hunting areas at Hobbs State Park – Conservation Area under cooperative management agreement with the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission.

IV. SHOOTING RANGES
The Department currently operates shooting ranges at Hobbs State Park – Conservation Area and the Ozark Folk Center. Firearms and related ammunition are allowed on these ranges, but firearms must be unloaded upon entry and departure from these sites.
A. Ranges operate under National Rifle Association Range Safety Guidelines and/or National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association guidelines. Rules approved by the Manager of Operations will be posted at each location. Compliance with all range rules is mandatory.
B. Shooting clubs hosting events or law enforcement agencies during qualifications will designate a chief range officer (and assistant range officers as appropriate) to maintain a safe and efficient shooting environment.

Effective Until Superseded - 3 - PD 3070

C. Abuse or violation of range rules will be sufficient reason for park management staff to suspend clubs, groups, or individuals from the shooting range. Those suspended will only be reinstated upon approval of the Manager of Operations or State Parks Director.

V. EXPLOSIVES
The use of explosives of any type is prohibited within state park / museum properties.
For construction purposes, special permission for the use of explosives must be
obtained from the State Parks Director or Manager of Operations.
VI. FIREWORKS
To celebrate some national holidays and in conjunction with special events, fireworks programs or special events may be established at a park / museum. However, due to
the danger of bodily harm, especially to children, the danger of starting grass fires, and the noise and disturbance to park visitors, the Department of Parks and Tourism prohibits the individual use and display of all types of fireworks. In addition, the sale of fireworks is prohibited in any park /museum store or any concessions inside park / museum boundaries.

Any use of fireworks within the park after a warning is given will result in the confiscation of the items.

Replaces PD 3070 dated July 1, 1975, and
PD 3070.1 dated August 27, 1987

APPROVED BY: ______________________________
GREG BUTTS, DIRECTOR
Arkansas State Parks

[dwpa]

Thanks everyone, especially HotGuns, for the replies. Not exactly what I wanted to hear, but exactly what I expected to hear. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any statewide, pro-gun groups that organize boycotts of businesses with "no carry" signs? I know that several other forum members have said that their states have some group that does that. Anybody know about Arkansas? Also, since HotGuns is becoming my "go-to guy" more and more for info about Arkansas CCW, do you or anyone else know of any groups I could join that lobby the state legislature concerning CCW rights in Arkansas?

[SIGguy229]

I agree with lowflyer...I think those signs mean they don't want those old-fashioned revolvers in their stores....They prefer a semi-automatic.

[HotGuns]

dwpa...Glad to be of service.

I'm not aware of any particular group that has much in the way of political clout...except some of the various gunclubs.

a little story...
when the Concealed Carry law was first established, the local Walmart decided to post a sign that disallowed concealed carry. Several of our club members went in and voiced their displeasure and mentioned that they would take their business to the Walmarts in surrounding counties that werent posted.

After a brief talk with the manager about it, he asked me how many club members we had. I told him that it was in the neighborhood of 200+ at the time and that it included many pastors and business owners. I also told him that our newsletter was about to be printed and that I sure would like to inform the members that Walmart was no longer posted. The next day, the sign came down. I went in to inquire about it, and the manager told me that there was no sense in ailenating everyone about it, as he just didnt think that it was that big a deal...until he was proved otherwise. About a year later, I thought it somewhat amusing to see that he attended one of our CWP classes and got his permit.

On another note...we are fortunate that Govenor Huckabee and his wife are both staunch supporter of gun rights. That is a major help when getting the laws amended to be more user friendly and he is very approachable when it comes to discussion about such. The Govenor is the one that encourages the gathering of Instructors and the State Police every few years to discuss the in and outs of the law. It is from a few of these sessions that some of the laws came to be amended for the better. Having a Govenor with a clue sure does make life easier.

[riversdaddy]

As per the question as to whether or not you can carry in places with the little no gun signs, you can (providing it is not one of the established no carry zones, like a federal building). I just spoke with the office of the Arkansas Attorney General(The horse's mouth). The way the Arkansas code reads, the owner must display a sign that exactly reads that "carry of a concealed handgun is prohibited", and it must be displayed within ten feet of any major entrance. That stuff on the Arkansas State police site is not Arkansas code, and doesn't count. It's just some genreal stuff on a website, not law. That must have been put there mistakenly, or without enough clarification. The only legal way for a business owner to make his property off limits to ccw holders is with that exact sign. I guess those little quotation marks do make a difference.