New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster

This is a discussion on New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by JCSlumlord I would refer back to the studies years ago by John Lott and earlier by Gary Kleck (sp?). I am sure ...

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Thread: New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCSlumlord View Post
    I would refer back to the studies years ago by John Lott and earlier by Gary Kleck (sp?). I am sure their research has already been talked about here someplace.
    I'm sure it has too, and believe me, I'm not trying to bust your balls here, it's just very easy to say this or that about a topic, or refer to someone or another's research and still be very vague and unconvincing to one's audience.

    I still believe that engaging this fellow for any length of time is counter-productive, but if you must, I recommend you be prepared with specific facts and data points, rather than the rather "fuzzy" "Mr. X or Mr Z's research which is available online somewhere". This guy will try to bury you in irrelevancy, so your counter must be concise and accurate.

    ...and welcome to the forum ...seems I neglected that earlier.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Don't bother trying to teach a pig to sing. You'll only get frustrated and it annoys the pig. You can't win... why bother.
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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Not being snide or cutsey, but MOVE-- not only from NJ but anywhere in that whole overpriced, overtaxed, overpopulated pile of yada yada called the northeast. Spoke to someone in NJ today--it is 39 degrees and getting colder and for this privilege you get the abovementioned descriptive benefits--not to mention having to put up with anti CC verbage from people who believe in tooth fairies, the police are seconds away to protect, and their firearms are to protect you and not them first and foremost.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadsnugun View Post
    Can you back this up? If one intends to argue about something, one should have facts to present.
    See Don Kates article on Guns, Murders, and the Constitution, at guncite.com

    This article describes a number of attempts at doing surveys of defensive gun use. Based on the ANTI GUN surveys only, (this was done in the 1980's), there
    are about 645,000 DGU's annually in the US vs. 580,000 criminal misuses. Another 215,000 times a year guns are used to defend against snakes and other dangerous animals. The NRA polls show a much higher degree of DGU'S (that is where the 2.5 million times a year estimate came from)).
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    See Don Kates article on Guns, Murders, and the Constitution, at guncite.com

    This article describes a number of attempts at doing surveys of defensive gun use. Based on the ANTI GUN surveys only, (this was done in the 1980's), there
    are about 645,000 DGU's annually in the US vs. 580,000 criminal misuses. Another 215,000 times a year guns are used to defend against snakes and other dangerous animals. The NRA polls show a much higher degree of DGU'S (that is where the 2.5 million times a year estimate came from)).
    While I haven't read this article yet (and may not ever) this is exactly what I'm talking about. You provide a source, an explanation of the data and the data itself. More than enough information for anyone who may be so inclined to fact check and verify on their own. This wins points with audiences, though one must be careful not to bore them with too many statistics.
    Never pick a fight with an old man...If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you - John Steinbeck
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Not being snide or cutsey, but MOVE-- not only from NJ but anywhere in that whole overpriced, overtaxed, overpopulated pile of yada yada called the northeast. Spoke to someone in NJ today--it is 39 degrees and getting colder and for this privilege you get the abovementioned descriptive benefits--not to mention having to put up with anti CC verbage from people who believe in tooth fairies, the police are seconds away to protect, and their firearms are to protect you and not them first and foremost.
    I agree 100% with this, well, except for those very much "Pro-2A States". Definitely for NJ, NY, and IL. I say leave those states to the Anti's and the criminals and the Anti's can then try and figure out how to control the criminals on their own, and they'll lose all those tax dollars.

    There are better places to live!

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  8. #22
    Member Array Bongo Boy's Avatar
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    I'm really not sure what the writer's point is--it seems like he's suggesting that all of these questions have to be answered, somehow, in advance of any decision to arm oneself. Not sure where's he going with it. The only response I can think of that makes any sense is to say something such as:

    "All of the issues you raise, in the form of questions pertaining to either this particular event or to conflict in general, are issues of concern to any person, especially folks who find themselves being threatened with a lethal weapon. I don't know why you'd assume I or anyone else isn't asking these questions. Few of your questions can be answered in advance--preparedness would be answering those that can be, and understanding the importance of the others.

    Of your questions that you cited as being the most important, regarding whether the woman's actions decreased or increased her potential risk of serious injury, clearly her actions reduced this risk, from this particular assailant under her circumstances, to zero. Only that individual who finds himself/herself in mortal danger can make the call as to what action is best. We are in complete agreement, if you're suggesting that adequate self defense goes far beyond being armed. Your questions regarding where one's weapon is carried, how it is loaded, and whether or not we've considered that our assailant may have multiple weapons--are all very good questions. We certainly share the view that everyone who arms themselves should explore these questions, or prepare themselves by understanding the implications or armed conflict.

    The article I cited serves to support the notion that the People can defend themselves and others, and that when allowed to exercise their right to do so, can prevail in their efforts to survive.

    It is every reasonable person's hope, I think, that we will all be as aware of our own circumstances as practical, and avoid those circumstances that seem most likely to put us in danger. Often, dangerous threats are brought to us, whether we take steps to avoid them or not. When they are, I'd want our governments to fully support our right to defend ourselves to the degree warranted.

    Thank you for your interest regarding the concerns and responsibilities we share in exercising our fundamental right to defend ourselves."

    That's my view. I think the writer was simply expressing a genuine concern that there are many considerations folks should take into account--but his implication is that this somehow has a bearing on whether the Right is 'granted' or not. He also seems to be implying a belief that being armed somehow puts you at more risk than if you weren't. While I believe there's some perverted 'logic' going on there, what I wrote attempts to give the benefit of some doubt.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCSlumlord View Post
    ROON:

    You have a point there.. I will put that question into my response. I wonder if this guy is a local cop? When I went through my purchase permit process, my discussions with the local PD officers (granted, it was a small sample of a force of over 500) revealed they were largely of the opinion the public is not competent enough to be trusted with firearm ownership.. let alone be allowed to carry.
    If I took a small sampling of LE from the news I might come to the conclusion that I don't trust them to be armed either. So should we disarm them because of the few that have proven untrustworthy of our trust or being armed? Their opinion cuts both ways. I'm sure they would love me.
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  10. #24
    Member Array torgo1968's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    The NRA polls show a much higher degree of DGU'S (that is where the 2.5 million times a year estimate came from)).
    The 2.5 million figure I follow comes from Kleck, not the NRA. I wouldn't trust the NRA's survey any more than I would trust a survey done by the Brady Campaign. You have to go with independent researchers like Kleck.

    As for the OP, your subject seems to be under the mistaken impression that we think that our guns provide a 100% reliable force field making us immune to any harm while carrying. Of course there are situations where carrying won't help, just as there are car crashes where seat belts won't help, and house fires where an extinguisher won't help. That doesn't mean that they aren't helpful in many other situations, and it's not at all difficult to find examples with a little digging online.

    You might also point out that during the time span when concealed carry swept the country (going from half the states to over 40 now), violent crime in all categories, including gun crimes, plummeted. I don't believe that concealed carry was the cause of the drop in crime, but it should be obvious that they did not cause harm.

  11. #25
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    Lots of Luck. Try getting them to go to www.justfacts.com/guncontrol and read the before and after gun bans in DC and Chicago. Murder rate about double the US in both cases.
    If I'd known I was going to live this long, I'd taken better care of myself when I was youner

  12. #26
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    Welcome to the forum.

    Remember, if you argue with an idiot, you bring yourself down to their level.
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  13. #27
    Member Array GettingOld2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    Welcome to the forum.

    Remember, if you argue with an idiot, you bring yourself down to their level.
    ... and they will beat you with experience.

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  14. #28
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    First point...

    Give up with this 'on-line' anti...don't waste your valuable time trying to discuss/argue/convince a Maroooooon.
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  15. #29
    Distinguished Member Array Anubis's Avatar
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    The online anti will argue trivial points forever and never concede anything. The simplest argument: if a circumstance arises where having a weapon saves my life, if I have a weapon I live.

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    TO OUR MODERATORS: Would it be possible to add a "sticky" or a sub-category where folks could paste copies of relevant studies regarding the effective defensive use of firearms?
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