New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster

New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster

This is a discussion on New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey everyone, brand new to the the forum. I am posting from a non CCW state (NJ). Having a debate on a website that deals ...

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Thread: New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster

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    New Member Array JCSlumlord's Avatar
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    New to forum.. need help with a response to an anti CCW poster

    Hey everyone, brand new to the the forum. I am posting from a non CCW state (NJ).

    Having a debate on a website that deals with local issues. I posted a pro CCW post in regards to a report of a mugging as an example why NJ should join the majority of the country and allow people to carry:

    A Jersey City Heights resident was mugged at knifepoint at Central and Prospect avenues at 7:20 p.m. Wednesday night, according to police reports.
    The 40-year-old victim told police that a man wearing a white coat followed her for several blocks before showing the knife and grabbing her pocketbook, reports said. The robber walked away north on Central Avenue and then east on Reservoir Avenue, reports said.


    I received a response to explain how CCW would have prevented the mugging in this particular interest. In response, I posted a story of a man in CT that was mugged in a similar fashion. The victim however, was able to fight back, and shot the mugger twice in the chest. I then received this response:

    Again, you didnít provide specific details of a plausible armed self-defense scenario relating specifically to an incident where a woman is taken by surprise by a knife-wielding man outside her field of vision. You may as well have written, ďFirst she presses the CIRCLE button to roll away from the attacker, selects her weapon with the directional buttons on the PlayStation controller, and then presses and holds L1 to aim.Ē

    Itís not hard to generate relevant questions that bear significantly on the reality of armed self-defense that are irresponsible and dangerous to ignore, but I donít gather youíre doing that. For example:
    How close is the assailant when the victim realizes she is in danger? Where does she have her weapon secreted? Is it in a holster? Is the holster Velcro-ed or buttoned closed? Is she trained in self-defense with a firearm? Is it a semi-auto or a revolver? If the former, is a round already chambered? How long does it take her to draw it from its concealed location and aim? Is she frightened? How does she react differently under that kind of pressure? What are the assailants options when he sees that woman might be going for a weapon? Does he flee and risk being shot or does he close distance faster than she can retrieve her gun and physically assault her or stab her with the knife heís already holding? Do they struggle? Is he physically stronger? Does he also have a gun? Most importantly, do her actions increase or decrease her potential risk of serious, if not mortal injury?

    If you and your wife want to bring loaded guns on to public streets and places of business without considering these issues, thatís already an argument that perhaps you are not responsible or skilled enough to do so.



    I generally avoid specific "what-if" debates because I generally find them pointless. I generally fallback on the fact that CCW access has been expanding for 25 years (since FL became shall issue) because CCW has worked far more times that it has failed. Still, I would like some input / thoughts from the to provide good response to this guy (not trying to change his mind.. but the others on the forum). I am going ignore the snide little 'video game' remark.....


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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    .........because CCW has worked far more times that it has failed.
    What does that mean? You have had to pull you weapon several times and sometimes it didn't work out for ya? I know that sounds flip or sarcastic. It is not meant to be. I am just scratching my head trying to figure it out.

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    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    This is one of those "make your point by questioning the adversaries reasoning" guys. He will never acknowledge the truth in your argument, he'll deride every point you try to make as being foolish, he'll offer nothing substantial to back up his arguments, and he'll always take the last word and claim victory whether it's deserved or not.

    I say go with the "at least she would have the means to defend herself" angle and refuse to be drawn further into his unending campaign of character assassination and misinformation.
    Guest1, Redline, tkruf and 3 others like this.
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    Distinguished Member Array 4my sons's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Forum,

    You are embarking on a Nobel but highly fruitless journey. The people you are communicating with are as set in their views as you are in yours. I say this as someone who has been there, done that.

    As for helping with your question.

    The Woman in your incident above being situationally aware to have known this BG was following her, could have made a stand at some point that was advantageous to her, (maybe cross the street to see if BG follows) put her hand on her weapon, (in purse or pocket or holster) and been ready to draw, but not produced the weapon yet. Spoken in a clear voice that she is armed and he needs to stop following her. It's then the choice of the BG to proceed with his plans or move on down the road. Most likely when confronted with a woman who is obviously ready and prepared to fight, he will choose to keep on walking.

    Also, Citizens who choose to carry are of a different mindset than most anti's, and constantly prepare themselves for that time when they may need to use their weapon for protection. No, there are no guarantees, but preparing yourself mentally and arming yourself puts you two steps ahead of the average person who would ask so many ridiculous questions about the BG that are not your concern.
    Last edited by 4my sons; January 25th, 2012 at 01:03 PM. Reason: spelling
    Redline, Tzadik and Hopyard like this.
    "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [Warren v. District of Columbia,(D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)]
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    New Member Array JCSlumlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    What does that mean? You have had to pull you weapon several times and sometimes it didn't work out for ya? I know that sounds flip or sarcastic. It is not meant to be. I am just scratching my head trying to figure it out.

    No sarcasm or confusion intended. Let me attempt to clarify:

    There are far more instances of people being saved from harm by being allowed to carry (often without having to fire a shot.. the threat of force is enough to defuse the situation) than instances where carrying a weapon did not prevent an unhappy outcome for the victim.

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    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCSlumlord View Post
    No sarcasm or confusion intended. Let me attempt to clarify:

    There are far more instances of people being saved from harm by being allowed to carry (often without having to fire a shot.. the threat of force is enough to defuse the situation) than instances where carrying a weapon did not prevent an unhappy outcome for the victim.
    Can you back this up? If one intends to argue about something, one should have facts to present.
    Never pick a fight with an old man...If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you - John Steinbeck
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    Senior Member Array WD54241's Avatar
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    5 years ago I left NJ because I started a family. I refuse to raise my child in Jerzee surrounded by the touchy feely do nothing left. I never had any luck with debating the Anti Gun crowd even though 49 other states agree with me. My home town AC has had record shootings and deaths! I made the right move. Jersey City, rough area. Be safe! and remember situation awareness...
    tkruf likes this.

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    How much training should be required to exercise what SHOULD be a right, the right to defend yourself. Do we ask all these questions of LE before strapping them up and sending them out? Probably not actually. I understand training, but you can't do it for every scenario.

    How about this, I find it find it irresponsible and dangerous of the government to leave it's citizens with no means to protect themselves between the time they find themselves in a life and death situation and the police get there. I'm not saying I'm superman and have every answer, I just want the ability to defend myself in that situation. And a firearm is the best tool to do it with against a knife.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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    Member Array CAS_Shooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    Welcome to the Forum,

    You are embarking on a Nobel but highly fruitless journey.
    +10000000

    It is fruitless. What do you call a person that argues with a fool..........a bigger fool. Resist the urge to reason with or change the opinion of anyone on the internet that already has a well documented strong opinion. No benefit comes from a response. Nothing will change. No one will be enlightened. It results only in drama.
    Redline likes this.

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    New Member Array JCSlumlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dadsnugun View Post
    Can you back this up? If one intends to argue about something, one should have facts to present.
    I would refer back to the studies years ago by John Lott and earlier by Gary Kleck (sp?). I am sure their research has already been talked about here someplace.

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    New Member Array JCSlumlord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4my son View Post
    Welcome to the Forum,

    You are embarking on a Nobel but highly fruitless journey. The people you are communicating with are as set in their views as you are in yours. I say this as someone who has been there, done that.
    Not planning on changing this guy's opinion. There are however, a few people reading who are 'on the fence', those are the ones I am trying to influence. One woman in particular is trying to convince her husband to allow them firearms for home defense (she was previously anti-gun until she started talking to me about it). Her husband however (orgainic Whole Foods hippie type of guy) is still opposed.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    JC, His questions are relevant to the discussion. This individual seems to know something about conceal carry, to be that specific. Kill him with kindness and facts. Do not try to BS with him. From the post, he is to smart for that. Look in the news section of the forum for storys that pertain to your journey....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    Member Array Roon's Avatar
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    For all of this indivduals questions they are missing the most fundamental, and their stance on this must be established prior to embarking on any kind of argument with them. Do they or do they not support one's right to defend their own life with whatever means necessary? Once you establish the answer to that question you can debate the specifics, until then you are just wasting your breath.
    Dadsnugun, rolyat63 and Tzadik like this.

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    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    Best of to make your point the best you can, then never look at the thread again.

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    New Member Array JCSlumlord's Avatar
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    ROON:

    You have a point there.. I will put that question into my response. I wonder if this guy is a local cop? When I went through my purchase permit process, my discussions with the local PD officers (granted, it was a small sample of a force of over 500) revealed they were largely of the opinion the public is not competent enough to be trusted with firearm ownership.. let alone be allowed to carry.

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