Mall Parking Lot posting (WI) - Page 3

Mall Parking Lot posting (WI)

This is a discussion on Mall Parking Lot posting (WI) within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; pretty soon there will be a sign that says, "Anyone CC'ing a firearm is not allowed to drive on the streets passing the mall "....

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Thread: Mall Parking Lot posting (WI)

  1. #31
    Member Array 02R1's Avatar
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    pretty soon there will be a sign that says, "Anyone CC'ing a firearm is not allowed to drive on the streets passing the mall ".


  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slider View Post
    If the Salon was posted No Firearms then it would be a great case I believe. If they posted it then I believe they are saying they are 100% responsible for your safety while on their property and the law does not protect them from liability then. The law states you are immune if you don't post or don't tell your employees they can't carry.
    so there wasn't a gun buster sign on the doors of that salon is what you're saying??

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array Gary Slider's Avatar
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    I am not sure. That is why I stated IF to start my post. I have not heard one way or the other if it was posted. Has anyone heard if it was posted no guns or not?
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    Gary Slider

    Co-Owner Handgunlaw.us

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  4. #34
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    I glad I live in Texas, only place I can't carry is the military base, federal post office, and college..oh almost forgot Buffalo wild wings and they don't have the right gunbuster sign on all entrances...(don't go to bars)
    I would rather live my life as if there is a God,
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  5. #35
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    943.13 (1m) (c)

    2. While carrying a firearm, enters or remains in any part of a nonresidential building, grounds of a
    nonresidential building, or land that the actor does not own or occupy after the owner of the building,
    grounds, or land, if that part of the building, grounds, or land has not been leased to another person, or the
    occupant of that part of the building, grounds, or land has notified the actor not to enter or remain in that part
    of the building, grounds, or land while carrying a firearm or with that type of firearm. This subdivision does
    not apply to a part of a building, grounds, or land occupied by the state or by a local governmental unit, to a
    privately or publicly owned building on the grounds of a university or college, or to the grounds of or land
    owned or occupied by a university of college, or, if the firearm is in a vehicle driven or parked in the parking
    facility, to any part of a building, grounds, or land used as a parking facility.


    bolded part, also have an issue here where none of the anchor stores are posted in a reasonable manner.

    whats really funny about the whole thing, I live near Madison and am in the city a lot, most of the places I go aren't posted at all


    also yes the salon was posted, but not with the 5x7 that the law says

  6. #36
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    My local mall (only one within 20 miles) has a 12x18 sign posted on the far left side of a vestibule at the MALL entrances.. its a code of conduct type posting, like no fighting, no destruction of property, no skateboarding.. and at the bottom, no firearms. tiny font.. its not titled in big letters as a NO FIREARMS sign.

    Thing it, if you're walking in, there are 6-8 double doors going into the vestibule and again going into the mall.. you're not likely to see this sign.. BUT none, and I mean ZERO of the anchor stores, i.e Target, Sears, JC Penny, Younkers have any NO FIREARMS signs at all.. so if you entered one of those stores.. then used their mallside entrances to go into the common mall area, there are no signs at all in your path.

    How does this affect a businesses right to prohibit firearms? In general and specifically, in Michigan? And what about the Dunhams Sports store inside the mall? It doesnt have its own exterior entrance, you can only enter the store from the mall corridor.. and they have about 100 firearms in that place.. for sale yes, but a firearm is present and possessed by a business entity (and when handling them, the employees are then in possession of a firearm)..

    I dont want to call the Mall owners or main office and ask.. as soon as I do, I am sure there will be 24x36" signs on every flat surface of the outside of that building...thoughts?

  7. #37
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    "a prominent place near all probable access points to the grounds or land to which the
    restriction applies and any individual entering the
    grounds or land can be reasonably expected to see the
    sign"

    It reads as though if posted at each entrance to the parking area it's legit. But often other laws conflict or override any other. You need to ask a lawyer experienced in this area.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by jblives2ride View Post
    I glad I live in Texas, only place I can't carry is the military base, federal post office, and college..oh almost forgot Buffalo wild wings and they don't have the right gunbuster sign on all entrances...(don't go to bars)
    I am assuming that you are just talking about places that you normally go where you aren't able to carry. There are certainly others that are off-limits. Also, at a college, you are only prevented from carrying into the buildings. You can carry while walking around the campus all you want (assuming there are no 30.06 signs if it is a private college).

  9. #39
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    The local mall here is a "gun free" zone, which also means it's a "whoppo free" zone.
    This is how I try to get my message across to the merchants in the mall:

    When ever I make a substantial purchase (pretty much anything over $100) and there is a merchant in the mall that offers the same or similar product for sale, I take the time to scan/copy the sales receipt and research the SKU number of their similar offering. I send this to the local management and to the regional office of the store along with the following message:

    Dear <insert name/title here):
    In making my decision to purchase the item(s) described in the attached document(s) I found the availability and pricing of your offering of <insert item description / SKU number> to be very acceptable, however your physical location in the Maine Mall presents an impass. The Mall has chosen to post it's facilities as a "gun free zone", disallowing those who have submitted to criminal background checks in order to obtain a state issued concealed weapons permits from entering the building while armed. In doing so, the Maine Mall is preventing only law abiding citizens from excercising their rights as guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment and in no way discouraging criminals, who pay no attention to laws and/or "no gun" signs, from being armed within the walls of the Mall. I choose not to relinquish my tools of personal protection for the sake of shopping convenience. For this reason I have given my business and money to your competitor and will continue to do so until the Mall chooses to respect my rights as an American Citizen instead of making the Mall safer for criminals. To date, I have given approximately $ xxxx.xx worth of my business to your competitors for this same reason.

    Respecfully,

    Name / Address


    =====

    Now I've been doing this for a few years, during which I've bought electronics, furniture, clothing, etc. With purchases like a new leather living room set, hardwood bedroom set, a HD DLP projectors, computers, tires, automotive maintenance, etc. that "to date" line for only a half dozen of the Mall stores was exceeded $20,000... more than half of that targeted at Best Buy, who BTW was the only merchant to ever reply... suggesting I should buy online and pay for delivery.
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  10. #40
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    But the mall is still posted, right? I find responses such as this have little overall effect on mall policies, as they evidently do also.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  11. #41
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    yeah.. still posted.
    I have no delusions that losing my business has any impact, but it makes me feel good to keep reminding them anyway :)
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  12. #42
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    Hah! Don Quxiote at his best!
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  13. #43
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    Not specifically addressing the mall posting issue, I think the signs would cover the building also, but to the comments regarding the business owners accepting responsibility for your safety if they have chosen to post their business with no gun signs.

    This falls under the "Duty of Care" of federal tort (civil) law. There are several criteria that must be met before a duty of care is established and it goes state by state pretty much. Here is the legal definition.

    a duty of care is a legal obligation imposed on an individual requiring that they adhere to a standard of reasonable care while performing any acts that could foreseeably harm others. It is the first element that must be established to proceed with an action in negligence. The claimant must be able to show a duty of care imposed by law which the defendant has breached.

    This is the first question asked.

    "Was the act that took place foreseeable?". Most cases of mass shootings in churches, schools, spa's and so on don't really lend themselves to meet this criteria unless the bad guy sends a letter of intent with a date of his action there is no way the business could know what was going to happen.
    Keep in mind that there is no study, statistic or anything else that shows businesses posted with no gun signs are anymore likely to be the scene/victim of a violent act than a business that welcomes firearms.

    There are also some states that use a multi-factor system to determine this. The first was in 1968 and looked like this.

    the foreseeability of harm to the injured party;
    the degree of certainty he or she suffered injury;
    the closeness of the connection between the defendant’s conduct and the injury suffered;
    the moral blame attached to the defendant’s conduct;
    the policy of preventing future harm;
    the extent of the burden to the defendant and the consequences to the community of imposing a duty of care with resulting liability for breach;
    and the availability, cost, and prevalence of insurance for the risk involved.[6


    A 1997 case added to this:

    the social utility of the defendant's conduct from which the injury arose.[7]

    Most states have followed California in implementing some kind of multi-factor analysis. Some states simply copied California's factors but modified them, like Michigan (which deleted the insurance factor and never picked up the social utility factor),[8] while others developed different lists of factors, such as this one from Tennessee:

    the foreseeability of the harm or injury;
    the possible magnitude of the potential harm or injury;
    the importance or social value of the activity engaged in by the defendant;
    the usefulness of the conduct to the defendant;
    the feasibility of alternative conduct;
    the costs and burdens associated with the alternative conduct;
    the relative usefulness of the alternative conduct;
    and the relative safety of the alternative conduct.[9]


    Once it is determined that a duty of care was established then it must be proven that they then breached it.

    Breach involves testing the defendant's actions against the standard of a reasonable person, which varies depending on the facts of the case. For example, physicians will be held to reasonable standards for members of their profession, rather than those of the general public, in negligence actions for medical malpractice.

    In turn, once the appropriate standard has been found, the breach is proven when the plaintiff shows that the defendant's conduct fell below or did not reach the relevant standard of reasonable care.

    However, it is possible that the defendant took every possible precaution and exceeded what would have been done by any reasonable person, yet the plaintiff was injured. If that is the case, the plaintiff cannot recover in negligence.

    So it is not as simple as it seems. A duty of care has to be established, then you have to prove that the duty of care was breached or did not meet standards and even then it is subjected to the reasonable man criteria.

    I am not claiming to be a legal eagle nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night I simply like to read and expand my knowledge base. Besides that it is Eid's a Muslim holiday so the bad guys have stood down and the internet is working good so I am taking advantage of it.

    Information added. Here is what I found on Wisconsin Duty of Care.

    101.11  Employer's duty to furnish safe employment and place.
    (1) Every employer shall furnish employment which shall be safe for the employees therein and shall furnish a place of employment which shall be safe for employees therein and for frequenters thereof and shall furnish and use safety devices and safeguards, and shall adopt and use methods and processes reasonably adequate to render such employment and places of employment safe, and shall do every other thing reasonably necessary to protect the life, health, safety, and welfare of such employees and frequenters. Every employer and every owner of a place of employment or a public building now or hereafter constructed shall so construct, repair or maintain such place of employment or public building as to render the same safe.
    (2) 
    (a) No employer shall require, permit or suffer any employee to go or be in any employment or place of employment which is not safe, and no such employer shall fail to furnish, provide and use safety devices and safeguards, or fail to adopt and use methods and processes reasonably adequate to render such employment and place of employment safe, and no such employer shall fail or neglect to do every other thing reasonably necessary to protect the life, health, safety or welfare of such employees and frequenters; and no employer or owner, or other person shall hereafter construct or occupy or maintain any place of employment, or public building, that is not safe, nor prepare plans which shall fail to provide for making the same safe.
    (b) No employee shall remove, displace, damage, destroy or carry off any safety device or safeguard furnished and provided for use in any employment or place of employment, nor interfere in any way with the use thereof by any other person, nor shall any such employee interfere with the use of any method or process adopted for the protection of any employee in such employment or place of employment or frequenter of such place of employment, nor fail or neglect to do every other thing reasonably necessary to protect the life, health, safety or welfare of such employees or frequenters.
    (3) This section applies to community-based residential facilities as defined in s. 50.01 (1g).


    It basically comes down to a reasonable effort on the part of the employer/business to prevent injury. Can you stretch that into a business can foresee and armed attack? Probably not but who knows.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    But the mall is still posted, right? I find responses such as this have little overall effect on mall policies, as they evidently do also.
    Quote Originally Posted by whoppo View Post
    yeah.. still posted.
    I have no delusions that losing my business has any impact, but it makes me feel good to keep reminding them anyway :)
    It would be too bad if a bunch of people, maybe ones with big pickup trucks, just happened to all have their vehicles stall at all of the entrances to the mall at exactly the same time. It would be really too bad if it happened to be at 7:00 pm on a Friday or Saturday night during the Christmas shopping season and it took like a half hour for each of these vehicles to get moved, or suddenly start up without a problem. What would be a really amazing coincidence if all of these vehicles had the same Pro-2nd-Amendment sticker on their back windows.
    Wow, that would be too bad, and an amazing coincidence.

  15. #45
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    I've been to BayPark Square Mall and those signs bother me. Because they are not on the Mall doors and the law prevents them from banning firearms in customer cars, it creates confusion.

    My theory is that it may "technically" only cover the outside grounds and not the building itself. It could be argued in court that the businesses intent was clear about the whole property and the opposing side citing WI rules to proper posting, but I wouldn't want to test my dollar on it in legal fees.

    Probably what happened is the mall (Owned by Simon Malls, I think), had issues with their stores/tenants not wanting to post their direct entrance doors (since it could reflect on their particular business), and tried to accommodate the "posted at all entrances" requirement to cover the mall with the parking lot option. It's a gray tactic on the mall owner's part IMO.
    “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”
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