Reciprocity in question

Reciprocity in question

This is a discussion on Reciprocity in question within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My son and I both conceal carry,and a question comes to mind.There is a disparancy between Minnesota and Wisconsin as to who can carry into ...

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    Member Array LOUPPK's Avatar
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    Reciprocity in question

    My son and I both conceal carry,and a question comes to mind.There is a disparancy between Minnesota and Wisconsin as to who can carry into who's state. Wisconsinites cannot breach the borders of Minnesota with a conceal carry without being subject to jail time and fines. However, Minnesota can breach Wisconsins borders without no problem at all.From what we can understand and researched information,it appears that Minnesota claims Wisconsinites has an innefficient testing procedures and Wisconsin is not up to par with Minnesota.It may take a National federal mandate to equalize the borders of the States to recognize each and every one's States permit to be recognised without fear or jail time of fines.To us it seems highly unfair as we are required by health issues to enter into Minnesota from time to time.What do you guys think, is this fair as far as interborder conceal carry laws are concerned.


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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Let me ask you this.

    Was it fair for Wisconsin not to allow people with CHL permits to carry within the borders of WI before they allowed concealed carry in WI?

    States make their own laws. If you don't like the laws of a state in which you travel for whatever reason, you don't have to travel there. However in your case, MN has something you want or need in the way of medical care. So while MN, abide by their state laws or suffer the consequences if you are found in violation of them.

    One more question. What did you do before WI allowed for concealed carry? I can only assume you dealt with it, and survived this far.
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    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Normally reciprosity agreements are worked out by the state’s Attorney Generals and they have to agree on what standards have to be met also Wisconsin is new to conceal carry and it will take a bit of time for them to work out agreements with other states.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOUPPK View Post
    My son and I both conceal carry,and a question comes to mind.There is a disparancy between Minnesota and Wisconsin as to who can carry into who's state. Wisconsinites cannot breach the borders of Minnesota with a conceal carry without being subject to jail time and fines. However, Minnesota can breach Wisconsins borders without no problem at all.From what we can understand and researched information,it appears that Minnesota claims Wisconsinites has an innefficient testing procedures and Wisconsin is not up to par with Minnesota.It may take a National federal mandate to equalize the borders of the States to recognize each and every one's States permit to be recognised without fear or jail time of fines.To us it seems highly unfair as we are required by health issues to enter into Minnesota from time to time.What do you guys think, is this fair as far as interborder conceal carry laws are concerned.

    Just apply for a MN non-resident permit, provided your training is sufficient etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Let me ask you this.

    Was it fair for Wisconsin not to allow people with CHL permits to carry within the borders of WI before they allowed concealed carry in WI?

    States make their own laws. If you don't like the laws of a state in which you travel for whatever reason, you don't have to travel there. However in your case, MN has something you want or need in the way of medical care. So while MN, abide by their state laws or suffer the consequences if you are found in violation of them.

    One more question. What did you do before WI allowed for concealed carry? I can only assume you dealt with it, and survived this far.
    I'm legal to carry and find that to cross the borders of Minn to go west to another bordered Minn state,(Dakota) I have to drive south another 400 miles to get to where I;M going to the SOuth Dakota state,that is if I want to conceal. In Minn, the night time fills with un savory characters,and to expect the law to protect us is an unreal expectation. Even the parking ramps at he hospitals are off limits to CCP holders. Survialance camers don't stop the BG from their appointed rounds .

    What I'm saying is " if they won't allow us to carry, we shouldn't allow them to enter our borders while conceal carry is legal for them to do so". I had nothing to with making the laws concerning CHL permits within our borders.It seems like you're assuming I did have control on the CH. I still contend a National federal law would satisfy all states concerned.That is my point.
    Last edited by JD; February 12th, 2012 at 03:05 AM. Reason: addressed via PM

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOUPPK View Post
    I'm legal to carry and find that to cross the borders of Minn to go west to another bordered Minn state,(Dakota) I have to drive south another 400 miles to get to where I;M going to the SOuth Dakota state,that is if I want to conceal. In Minn, the night time fills with un savory characters,and to expect the law to protect us is an unreal expectation. Even the parking ramps at he hospitals are off limits to CCP holders. Survialance camers don't stop the BG from their appointed rounds .
    What I'm saying is " if they won't allow us to carry, we shouldn't allow them to enter our borders while conceal carry is legal for them to do so". I had nothing to with making the laws concerning CHL permits within our borders.It seems like you're assuming I did have control on the CH. I still contend a National federal law would satisfy all states concerned.That is my point.
    Lou, I didn't read FW's post as intimating that you had any control over how the laws were written. I believe what he is saying is simply to obey the laws of the states in which you travel, as it would be reasonable to expect someone to do.
    Last edited by JD; February 12th, 2012 at 03:14 AM. Reason: Quoting edited post.

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    I can understand that it is absolutely necessary to comply with the states laws concerning the ccp laws for those states that have ccp requirements. But one has to admit the fact of the matter is, in order to cc with in their states it takes a NON resident ccp at Additional cost and a long laundry list of permits when traveling with in their borders and the required Non residence permits are extremely pricey, both in time (for their classes in CCP) plus the cost for federal checking (FBI) background checks Each AND EVERY TIME ONE permit is needed. In order to stop the money wheel from spinning through out the states that deny other states (permit holders) to cc with in their borders,a Federal mandated list of requirements could be the answer to allow free travel un abated through out the U,S. Photo and fingerprinting would be a requirement for interstate travel. That cost would be a one time cost to the person requesting such a permit. As an old military veteran. i have had experience in fire arm training. Wisconsin recognizes the hunter gun safety training to be sufficient in that respect .(fire arm training) for their CCPermit.

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    Wisconsin is still operating under emergency rules for concealed carry. The permanent rules have not been put into place yet. When they are, more states may honor Wisconsin's permit. I don't think Minnesota will be one of them though. Minnesota requires a live-fire component to their training. I actually wish that our training here in Wisconsin required live-fire training. I took an NRA pistol class so I had to do some live-fire to get my certificate so I am good there. But I still have to spend additional money for a permit and have to travel to Minnesota and deliver the application in person at a sheriff's office. If I don't want to do that I could get a Utah permit to carry in Minnesota but that requires a class which costs more time and money. I know it is not in the spirit of the 2A to require all the training, but there are still laws that have to be dealt with and it would have been a lot easier to carry all over this country if the training would have required more. Just my my view on the subject which I know others will disagree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOUPPK View Post
    I can understand that it is absolutely necessary to comply with the states laws concerning the ccp laws for those states that have ccp requirements. But one has to admit the fact of the matter is, in order to cc with in their states it takes a NON resident ccp at Additional cost and a long laundry list of permits when traveling with in their borders and the required Non residence permits are extremely pricey, both in time (for their classes in CCP) plus the cost for federal checking (FBI) background checks Each AND EVERY TIME ONE permit is needed. In order to stop the money wheel from spinning through out the states that deny other states (permit holders) to cc with in their borders,a Federal mandated list of requirements could be the answer to allow free travel un abated through out the U,S. Photo and fingerprinting would be a requirement for interstate travel. That cost would be a one time cost to the person requesting such a permit. As an old military veteran. i have had experience in fire arm training. Wisconsin recognizes the hunter gun safety training to be sufficient in that respect .(fire arm training) for their CCPermit.
    Do you really want the Federal government setting the standards for CC from state to state? What happens when some bureaucrat decides you need 100 hours of training per year, and sets a shooting qualification requirement of 50 hours per year conducted by government approved trainer? Then once they set unreasonable standards like that for carrying in another state with your permit, they decide that standard should also apply for carrying in the state your licensed in? Any time the federal government gets involved in something, it becomes a big bureaucracy that feeds off of the people to keep itself going.
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    Florida's reciprocity laws are a lot simpler. Any state that accepts FL's permit, Florida will accept theirs. If they don't we won't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Just apply for a MN non-resident permit, provided your training is sufficient etc.
    Did we not see this post....Fixes the OP problem....
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    Florida's reciprocity laws are a lot simpler. Any state that accepts FL's permit, Florida will accept theirs. If they don't we won't.
    Florida does not recognize non resident permits from other states.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    Until you apply for the aforementioned MN permit, I'd say that you will be seeking the medical treatment 'unarmed'.
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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LOUPPK View Post
    I can understand that it is absolutely necessary to comply with the states laws concerning the ccp laws for those states that have ccp requirements. But one has to admit the fact of the matter is, in order to cc with in their states it takes a NON resident ccp at Additional cost and a long laundry list of permits when traveling with in their borders and the required Non residence permits are extremely pricey, both in time (for their classes in CCP) plus the cost for federal checking (FBI) background checks Each AND EVERY TIME ONE permit is needed. In order to stop the money wheel from spinning through out the states that deny other states (permit holders) to cc with in their borders,a Federal mandated list of requirements could be the answer to allow free travel un abated through out the U,S. Photo and fingerprinting would be a requirement for interstate travel. That cost would be a one time cost to the person requesting such a permit. As an old military veteran. i have had experience in fire arm training. Wisconsin recognizes the hunter gun safety training to be sufficient in that respect .(fire arm training) for their CCPermit.
    You're from WI, the most recent state to even allow for concealed carry. I am not picking on WI as I was born there, and still have family there that we visit, infrequently now.

    You are up in arms that since you have spent the time and money to get your permit, some states don't allow you to carry through their state. You think the solution is to have a federal mandate that makes states honor each others permits. Why? Do you think that WI should honor same sex marriage licenses from states that allow them? After all, they have gone through time and expense to get married. Should the federal government madate that? Ok, don't answer that question as we don't want to get that debate started.

    Texas allows carry of loaded guns, handguns concealed, or long guns up in the rear window of the pickup truck any time of the day, night or year by anyone who can legally possess a firearm. WI, your long gun must be unloaded inside a case to transport it. Should there be a federal mandate saying that WI should allow folks from Texas to keep their guns loaded when traveling through the state?

    In WI, when you're transporting a deer that is killed it must be visible from a passing vehicle. (at least that was the law when I hunted there last). In Texas Hunter Ed class, I teach that you should not display your kill when traveling, as a matter of ethics and out of respect for the animal and other people who might find it offensive. Should there be a federal mandate saying that in WI you can no longer have the kill visible to a passing vehicle?

    We are the United States of America, plural. Not United State of America. We have borders between our respective states with varying laws within those borders for various things for a reason. That way the people of each state can elect people to represent them who have similar beliefs and then pass laws which reflect those beliefs. WI is less than a year in on the ability to carry concealed, so the belief in that right by the people is very, very new. Folks who have just recently decided that right was important to them should be the last ones to argue about other states willingness to accept their new found belief.

    I am not aiming this directly at you, so please don't be offended. I am simply giving examples of how and why the federal mandate is not such a good idea.

    BTW, WI honors Texas CHL, but Texas doesn't honor WI CHL. Why, my guess would be because Texas classes are 10 hours long and require much more than a hunter ed type training. Hunter ed training in Texas is a separate 10 hour course and neither course material transfers or has any bearing on the other course. Nothing in them is even similar.
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    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    First off, your scenarios doesn't quite fit. I can carry forth my argument with License plates, drivers license, Dot certification for trucking, I C.C, Federal Gasoline/fuel tax, etc. All federal and state requirements. Teen agers with drivers license ( the ink isn't even dry)is honored even though training time is minimal through out the UNITED STATES (plural)Mixing apples and oranges(same sex marriages/ CCP is almost laughable. I'm not up in arms as you so state, and as a veteran who served this country with honors ,do take exception to denial of neighboring states that require me to spend additional funds so I can cc with in their borders. If Minn or any other state cleans up their criminal enterprises, then the ccp would be moot.Unlike you, I am not a native of Wisconsin, but This is a fine state ,as far as I'm concerned, to be willing to lay my life on the line in the military to protect the people from all states. I didn't pick and choose states I would protected ,thus required to give me a military pay separate and apart from my home state (OHIO).I defended em all.Un like your reply,having a military force to protect this nation is in fact a federal government run operation that you seem all well and fine about. States policies are instrumental in revenue gathering as in additional NON RESIDENT ccp. I don't intend to state my position on federal mandated projects other then to say , we already have the programs in place as I have eluded to in the aforementioned paragraphs. Just don't pay your taxes and soon you may be making gravel from extremely large boulders.


    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    You're from WI, the most recent state to even allow for concealed carry. I am not picking on WI as I was born there, and still have family there that we visit, infrequently now.

    You are up in arms that since you have spent the time and money to get your permit, some states don't allow you to carry through their state. You think the solution is to have a federal mandate that makes states honor each others permits. Why? Do you think that WI should honor same sex marriage licenses from states that allow them? After all, they have gone through time and expense to get married. Should the federal government madate that? Ok, don't answer that question as we don't want to get that debate started.

    Texas allows carry of loaded guns, handguns concealed, or long guns up in the rear window of the pickup truck any time of the day, night or year by anyone who can legally possess a firearm. WI, your long gun must be unloaded inside a case to transport it. Should there be a federal mandate saying that WI should allow folks from Texas to keep their guns loaded when traveling through the state?

    In WI, when you're transporting a deer that is killed it must be visible from a passing vehicle. (at least that was the law when I hunted there last). In Texas Hunter Ed class, I teach that you should not display your kill when traveling, as a matter of ethics and out of respect for the animal and other people who might find it offensive. Should there be a federal mandate saying that in WI you can no longer have the kill visible to a passing vehicle?

    We are the United States of America, plural. Not United State of America. We have borders between our respective states with varying laws within those borders for various things for a reason. That way the people of each state can elect people to represent them who have similar beliefs and then pass laws which reflect those beliefs. WI is less than a year in on the ability to carry concealed, so the belief in that right by the people is very, very new. Folks who have just recently decided that right was important to them should be the last ones to argue about other states willingness to accept their new found belief.

    I am not aiming this directly at you, so please don't be offended. I am simply giving examples of how and why the federal mandate is not such a good idea.

    BTW, WI honors Texas CHL, but Texas doesn't honor WI CHL. Why, my guess would be because Texas classes are 10 hours long and require much more than a hunter ed type training. Hunter ed training in Texas is a separate 10 hour course and neither course material transfers or has any bearing on the other course. Nothing in them is even similar.
    yooperdug likes this.

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