Caliber and ammo are low on my priority list

This is a discussion on Caliber and ammo are low on my priority list within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My take on why caliber of defensive weapon and which type of ammo used are not that important. 1. Situational awareness, common sense and avoidance ...

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Thread: Caliber and ammo are low on my priority list

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    Caliber and ammo are low on my priority list

    My take on why caliber of defensive weapon and which type of ammo used are not that important.
    1. Situational awareness, common sense and avoidance trump everything.
    2. Training – With your specific weapon of choice, as well as H2H / CQC. There is much more training available that can serve us well. Most of us would spend our time and money more wisely on increased training rather than high priced guns, ammo, and equipment.
    3. Weapon selection – whatever you can carry comfortably (either CC or OC, your choice), you shoot well, with follow up shots, and feeds your chosen ammo reliably.
    4. Ammo – whatever feeds in your carry weapon reliably.

    The chances of us having a self/family defense situation are very rare.
    Drawing a firearm will end most of those situations.
    In the cases that do require the weapon to be fired, firing the weapon (hit or miss) will end the situation. Most BG’s are opportunistic, and when flame and lead are pointed in their direction will choose flight. Very few will not flee.
    In the cases that are not ended by simply firing, but an actual hit is made (anywhere on the body), again, very few BG’s will choose not to flee.
    At this point, multiple follow up shots are fired at BG if he has not retreated. The huge majority of BG’s will flee or at least give us a window of opportunity to escape.

    So we are left with an EXTREMELY small group of BG’s that are still around after avoidance, drawing weapon, firing weapon, firing multiple rounds, and hitting the BG at least once.
    This is the group (extremely small) that will be deterred or incapacitated only with multiple hits from a sufficiently large weapon with sufficiently capable ammo.

    We spend a lot of time on caliber and ammo selection, when a 22 lr pistol will solve all encounters except an extremely small percentage of them.
    Note: I have not backed up my ideas with statistics. I don’t expect this to be scientific, but it is what I believe.

    My point is not to discourage carrying powerful/capable weapons and ammo, but to note that it will be a very small factor in successfully surviving a dangerous/ potentially life threatening encounter.

    For the record, I carry an XD9 (4 inch) with Winchester 147 gr hollowpoints (approx $20-$25 per 50 at walmart), and if I run out of them, I do not feel under-gunned with any 115 FMJ range ammo or my own reloads. Everything that I carry has usually had at least 100-200 rounds thru my XD w/ no issues. (The XD doesn’t really have issues w/ any ammo I’ve put thru it).

    I expect that many posts will follow citing examples of multiple shot failure to stops, etc. My guess is that most will be law enforcement or military related.
    My post does not apply to LEO or Military, because their job is much more likely to encounter BGs that will fall into the last category.
    sixgun likes this.
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    I'd agree with most of whay you write.

    No need for caliber wars or brand bashing. Follow the 4 criteria you set out and you should be good to go.
    "Was there no end to the conspiracy of irrational prejudice against Red Ryder and his peacemaker?"

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Another one in agreement with most of your post.

    Michael

  5. #4
    Distinguished Member Array AKsrule's Avatar
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    Make sure you have lots of Life and Health Insurance.

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    Member Array .45acpguy's Avatar
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    OK.

    I am taking issue with your predisposition to believe that pulling your weapon will stop most BG encounters.

    If I pull my weapon, I will be prepared to use/fire it in defense of my life. If there is enough hesitation on your part (as you wait for the BG to note that you have pulled your gun and he should therefore get a clue and immediately leave your vicinity) the BG may see your hesitation as an opportunity to take you down.

    Also, your assumption that ANY caliber gun will get the job done is somewhat problematic. Do you have stats to back that up???

    Suppose some readers of your post think they can get away with carrying a lesser caliber and they end up in a bad way as a consequence?

    Your points about Situational Awareness, however are sound logic.

  8. #7
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by .45acpguy View Post
    OK.

    I am taking issue with your predisposition to believe that pulling your weapon will stop most BG encounters.

    If I pull my weapon, I will be prepared to use/fire it in defense of my life. If there is enough hesitation on your part (as you wait for the BG to note that you have pulled your gun and he should therefore get a clue and immediately leave your vicinity) the BG may see your hesitation as an opportunity to take you down.

    Also, your assumption that ANY caliber gun will get the job done is somewhat problematic. Do you have stats to back that up???

    Suppose some readers of your post think they can get away with carrying a lesser caliber and they end up in a bad way as a consequence?

    Your points about Situational Awareness, however are sound logic.
    There are quite a few studies run that back up his statement that almost any caliber gets it done in civilian defense situations. The CATO Institute study and the recent analysis of the NRA data both back up his statement. There was a recent thread in Good/Bad/Ugly forum where it took 17 hits (last three headshots) with a .45 to stop a bad guy (LEO encounter). In the recent Ohio school shooting 3 of 5 students shot with a .22LR handgun died.

    In the NRA data the average number of shots was 2, most defenses with with .38/9mm ammo, ranges tended to be remarkably short.

    My take on the data from those two studies:

    Pretty much shot placement trumps caliber every time. Larger bullets are very slightly better in an equivelant hit, but not enough to make up for shot placement or additional hits.

    If you do have to shoot, plan on having to make multiple hits regardless of caliber.

    On the subject of will pulling the gun end the encounter, the odds of having to shoot are all over the place. The NRA study indicated shots fired in ~70% of cases (the highest number for that I've ever seen - probably related to data selection), CATO statement was something like no shots fired in vast majority of incidents (but they didn't give a number), some other studies say only 20%. I don't think anybody has good statistics on this part.

    Fitch
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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    I'm not certain but I'm pretty sure that statistic's have never won a fight.

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    H2H and CQC are fine if your agile enough for it still, for many of us here those days are long gone.My days of going toe to toe or wrestling on the ground with someone are in the past.
    dukalmighty and RETSUPT99 like this.
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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Any gun is better than no gun or one left at home.
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  12. #11
    Member Array swmft's Avatar
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    Big problem with pulling your weapon is if you do not fire it in self defense most states will charge YOU with brandishing
    Better 12 judging than 6 carrying

  13. #12
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swmft View Post
    Big problem with pulling your weapon is if you do not fire it in self defense most states will charge YOU with brandishing
    Where did you glean that nugget of knowledge?

  14. #13
    Member Array swmft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Where did you glean that nugget of knowledge?
    Read your hand book

    by the by ex dea
    Hopyard likes this.
    Better 12 judging than 6 carrying

  15. #14
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swmft View Post
    Read your hand book

    by the by ex dea
    Help the unwashed. Whatever could your reply mean?

  16. #15
    Member Array swmft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Help the unwashed. Whatever could your reply mean?
    Every state is different Florida does not have open carry, You live in a state that does. Read this post it is about Ky.
    What if they see my gun? Brandishing...Kentucky [Archive] - Glock Talk
    Better 12 judging than 6 carrying

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