This is a discussion on Neighborhood Watch Cpt. kills Florida Teen UPDATE within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Just saw this on CNN. Looks like they are leaning toward not charging the guy. I definitely have to hear the 911 tapes when released. ...
Just saw this on CNN. Looks like they are leaning toward not charging the guy. I definitely have to hear the 911 tapes when released.
Florida teen's shooting by watchman questioned - CNN.com
Thanks for the update; it will be interesting to see how this plays out. I would be nice to hear more of the story rather than just what the media chooses to print.
When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."
I need to hear the tapes. But from what the Chief said as long as he claimed self defense they have to prove it was not. The only thing in the press about witneses statements is they saw the kid on top of Mr. Zimmerman. This is my speculation from the news accounts:
1. Man sees "suspicous black man"- That was reported what he said.
2. 911 operator tells him LEO is on the way. DOn't get involved (or words to that affect)-Reported in news
3. Man probably did not like that because he says "they always get away"- first part speculation, quote was in the news
4. Guy gets out and confronts the teen. Teen does not like getting questioned. Mr. Zimmeman blocks his way or otherwise impedes him-Fact, he get out of car, rest is specualtion
5. Words are traded and a fight ensues. From looking at the pics of both I think Zimmeraman I have problems beleiving he was getting his butt kicked by the teen. Pure speculation but I an see him not fighting back because he was in progress reaching for his weapon already. I mean think about it. I have never got my but kicked from someone smaller than me where I feared for my life.
6. He shoots the kid, folks saw the end of the fight.
7. If it goes to trial, he will probably get off with reasonable doubt (his word on the start of the altercation against the dead teen). But I have no doubt that is what happened.
8. Civil trial. He loses his shirt.
I agree the media is going to use the race card. This may have been a racially motivated shooting? I'm not passing judgement until they complete the investigation. I really am interested in the 911 recording.. Why did Zimmerman even call 911 to begin with? he was safely in his car armed. I would like an answer to why he did not follow LEO instructions..
my speculation, there was way to much temper and way too much testosterone and it ended in a tragedy.
A minor correction. The instructions were from the 911 operator, which I believe not to be a law enforcement officer. Still should have followed the instructions, though.
"Nothing is so dangerous as an idea, when it is the only one you have." -- Emile Chartier
It is a very sad and complicated incident. A whole bunch of things gone wrong.
1. White guy in Gated Community calling 911 with report of suspicious Black person. Bad.
2. Confronting person, or trying to impede "suspects" progress through the neighbourhood. Hence the supposed, "they always get away" statement. Bad.
3. Kid with a "chip" on his shoulder and in a testosterone filled moment decided he didn't like to be confronted and or accused by some white dude and proceeded to inflict a whoopin' on the guy. Bad.
4. Community Watchman armed with a pistol. Could have been drawing it or trying to draw when the beat down was happening. Maybe the kid tried to wrestle the gun away from the guy and got shot. Bad.
It's just bad all the way around no doubt. The Black community is going to be up in arms over this and perhaps rightfully so, unless there is proof otherwise the shoot was wrong and we may never know. The Gated Community has probably been the victim of home invasions and this has added to the nervous nature of the guy doing the Watching. Just a recipie for disaster is all I can say.
Not taking up for either one. The Watchman and the Kid were perhaps both at fault and one of them got killed in the process.
"A Smith & Wesson always beats 4 aces!"
The Man Prayer. "Im a man, I can change, if I have to.....I guess!" ~ Red Green
I'm new here and dont know anyone so will try to lend measure to my thoughts and statements, so here goes:
He's a 28yr old with a gun..a Neighborhood watch captain is not a trained armed secuirity guard and even if he was for the purpose of neighborhood watch, the presented gun was hardly warranted for the task of 'watching', presumably nobodys life and /or property were in lethal threat until he got out the car..he likely got out the car because he had a gun and was bigger than the teen. A gated community which in my experience tends to foster a somewhat narrow mentality (as in 'hey..who is that..he doesnt live/belong here' as one peers at them thru the curtains pressing the quick dial for the community security service. I have freinds and family out west that live in gated communites...some decidedly snobish and paranoid folk..but I digress). Black kid..with skittles and iced tea, no evidence of skulking about..>NONE..but because of his..erm...'difference' was presumed suspicious. Suspicious enough for this guy to call 911..no doubt description given and cops enroute...28-yr old safe and secure..unharmed and unmolested in his own automobile, yet he decides to leave and confront the suspicious youth. I dont know about you fellows, but when I'm about my daily personal and innocent affairs and some "dude" takes it on himself to plant himself physically in my face, accosts me and demand I bend knee and offer the tribute of the full and thorough explanation of my occupying this current space on earth although I'm commiting no crime and doing no harm..there isnt a fiber in my being that will comply and if he doesnt move Imma break something on him!! I dont know what the kid did, I dont see reports that he started beating the 28-yr old out the blue, but everything about this seems to imply that the level of confrontation was purely instigated and fueled by the choices the 28-yr old watch captain decided to take against the advise of the 911 operator...admittedly not orders by law enforcement officers. End result..a kid that has no business being dead is dead! Say what you will but he had just reason to be in the neighborhood and at the property and was breakin no law.
I know neither of these parties but to me if he were a sundress wearing 17 year old blonde female none of this would have occured. I suggest that the trigger was his color, the hammer was a prejudiced overzealous ego and unwise 28-yr old that apparently still has some growing to do and wisdom to attain and perhaps procured his carry license too early.
I speak honestly, if it were myself or my kid and someone I dont know and to my knowlege had no business whatsoever accosting me, detaining me and god forbid, laying hands on me to constrain or hold me..I'd..heck..we'd both be employing fisticuffs on our..erm...'attacker'?? Makes no sense as to why this citizen decided he had authority to detain the other citizen and expect compliance. He absolutely did not have the right!
Either way another instance of someone walking into a scene with a fatal outcome that one likely would never had considered if not for the ownership and toting of a firearm. Carrying truly comes with huge responsibilities and lord help us, lets hope it also is accompanied by wisdom and an even temper. Kid should at worst been 'observed' to see if he was doing anything unlawful or destructive or threatening then yelled at "I've already called 911, cops are coming and I know what you look like" and kept his distance. Worst outcome wouldve been four-letter expletives exchanged.
Floridas "stand your ground" law is going to be more broadly scritinized because a 28-yr old probably was getting a thumping by a 17-yr old, the kid getting the unexpected upper hand. Speculation on my part but he likely thought he could 'handle' this kid..why else would one unjustifiably decide to roll up ones sleeves and physically confront another?
On the aside, from what I can tell, kids that get up to trouble like B&E tend not to do such things as a solo act, so A kid walking alone tends to not be trouble regardless of color. Exceptions exist clearly..
I say this, yet will wait to see what justice determines..
A shame all around, truly.
Last edited by Moozh; March 13th, 2012 at 05:34 PM.
The lesson for me is De-escalation. I suspect that if either party had used some form of de-escalation the young man would be alive today.
Our society (myself included) has a tendency to escalate matters much quicker than need be.
A good reminder to myself to stay calm and try to diffuse a situation, rather than make it hotter.
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it. Albert Einstein
"People in Arizona carry guns," said a Chandler police spokesman. "You better be careful about who you are picking on."
I'm trying to figure out why the facts of the case aren't just presented to the next grand jury.
"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." - Thucydides
I saw on one of the news sites that Zimmerman had 100 lbs on the teen. That's a very significant weight
advantage for the kid to have overcome to pound Zimmerman to where he felt his life in danger.
Its not impossible of course, the kid may have been trained or been a natural fighter and Zimmerman not.
Or, the kid might have just gotten a lucky shot in by cold-cocking Zimmerman and putting him dazed onto the ground.
See, we really just don't know and we have absolutely nothing to help us understand what happened from the dead kid's
I think from the overall circumstances it is hard to not accept the SD defense offered up, but it doesn't sit well
with my gut. As I suggested elsewhere, two young guys, both with too much testasterone and not enough brains, =
I also think it is entirely possible that both participants had the law on their side (stand your ground, Castle, both having a right to be where they were); that there wasn't one person
solely responsible. Tragic things like that happen.
If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
After living 30 years in Chicago, I was full up on the race card being played in every shooting by the police, but this is one case where a kid is dead for being black. Barney Fife saw a black kid (of course he is up to no good) gets out of the car and a fight ensues and boom the black kid is dead. The shooter better protect his assets, because he is going to get the pants sued off of him and in a civil trial, and he loses where the standard for recovery is "more likely true". And deservedly so.
I mean really, would anyone on this forum condone what this guy did? I am optimistic they would not. This is the crap that makes the antis take away our rights.
If my liberal freinds saw this post they would be shocked.
I'd rather be lucky than good any day
There's nothing that will change someone's moral outlook quicker than cash in large sums.
Majority rule only works if you're also considering individual rights. Because you can't have five wolves and one sheep voting on what to have for supper.
According to CNN affiliate WFTV, Zimmerman, who is white, described Martin to a dispatcher as a suspicious black man.
I don't get it. What made the man appear suspicious to Mr. Zimmerman? Suspicious to me means peeping into windows, looking into cars, ducking under windows when walking around, checking out the HVAC unit, utility entrance etc. Did I miss something in the article?
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img_Zg2npL.jpgPolice said they have not charged Zimmerman because there are no grounds to disprove his story of what happened.
"The evidence and testimony we have so far does not establish that Mr. Zimmerman did not act in self-defense. We don't have anything to dispute his claim of self-defense, at this point, with the evidence and testimony that we have," Lee said.
Lee said the directions the 911 dispatcher gave Zimmerman to not accost Martin when the incident arose were not mandatory instructions.
"That is a call taker making a recommendation to him. He's not under a legal obligation to do that, so that is not something we can charge him with. But it would have been a good outcome ... if Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman never came in contact with one another."
"There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)
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