Data on what percentages of distances shooting incidents with CCL have taken place?

This is a discussion on Data on what percentages of distances shooting incidents with CCL have taken place? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Pardon earlier. I have the temperment as I see the consequences from even appearing to escalate a situation. Feels strange carrying a firearm in a ...

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Thread: Data on what percentages of distances shooting incidents with CCL have taken place?

  1. #16
    New Member Array FelixC's Avatar
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    Pardon earlier. I have the temperment as I see the consequences from even appearing to escalate a situation.

    Feels strange carrying a firearm in a concealed belt holster vs an issue flap holster. Does not feel natural. Ankle holster worse. Evaluating if I truly need a firearm or continue with the knife which is more for utility but is useful up close. Handgun currently in secure case in vehicle when away from the house.

    I am rather fast on my feet.

    I do work in a problematic after dark part of town.

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  3. #17
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    Just conjecture, because I don't want to be one of the statistics, if your SA and prevention skills fail, you're going to be at close range without enough time to draw, get the OC out, or open a knife. Learn to create opportunities, distractions, H2H, and disarms. There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle to answer your question, and one can only editorialize. For a civilian, I suppose things happen in a few seconds, with a few shots fired, and knowing what I know about the normal CCW carrier, at very close range. Those assumptions may not apply to the more careful and skilled members of this forum.
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  4. #18
    Member Array pappou68's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixC View Post
    I ask because am considering a CCW but currently always carry a Spyderco pocket knife which can be quickly deployed in those 21 feet.
    How can you draw and open a pocket knife and not a ccw in those 21 feet IF either was possible?

  5. #19
    New Member Array FelixC's Avatar
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    Knife in trouser pocket but held with securing clip in pocket edge. I do not have to reach into the pocket to retrieve.

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixC View Post
    Pardon earlier. I have the temperment as I see the consequences from even appearing to escalate a situation. While I don't escalate I do have points in situation that trigger action. What yours should be only you can set I have set mine. Up to that trigger point I will do what ever I can to defuse the situation but once reached only the BG can stop it. Once that point is reached who starts the final action depends on how far behind in the fight you wish to be.

    Feels strange carrying a firearm in a concealed belt holster vs an issue flap holster. Does not feel natural. Ankle holster worse. Evaluating if I truly need a firearm or continue with the knife which is more for utility but is useful up close. Handgun currently in secure case in vehicle when away from the house. The carrying of a firearm is not meant to be comfortable or feel normal but it is something we decide to put up with for the feeling of comfort it gives in the having. I have heard it said "give it 21 days" do something for 21 days and it becomes habit.

    As to the carry of a gun or knife I choose to carry both, I then have the opion of using either or both.

    My thoughts on this statementHandgun currently in secure case in vehicle when away from the house. When a gun is needed you don't have time to take extra steps to get in your hands. Keep it on you.


    I am rather fast on my feet. Unless you can cover at least 800 ft per sec you lose, most any pistol round will go that fast or faster and if you face a gun that's what you have to outrun.

    I do work in a problematic after dark part of town.

    What ever you chose to do with guns/knives get training and practice
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  7. #21
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixC View Post
    I read this article from What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

    Which summaries from my reading that the defensive shooter is at a disadvantage(loses) inside of 7-1/2yards and tend to win at further distances such as 12 to 15 yards.

    Is this correct?

    I take it the 7.5 yards is due to the 21feet distance which can be covered before a defender is able to draw their firearm?

    Is there data form actual shooting incidents with CCL holders to confirm the above?

    I ask because am considering a CCW but currently always carry a Spyderco pocket knife which can be quickly deployed in those 21 feet.
    If you can deploy a clipped Spyderco under the Tueller drill distance effectively, you should certainly be able to deploy a firearm within the same parameters.

    You have apparently practiced doing so. With the same amount of practice, it is my considered opinion that you would actually be quicker with the gun. This does to some degree, depend on the firearm and the "condition" in which it is carried. But, in all, there will probably be less manipulation required for the handgun than your blade.
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  8. #22
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
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    Key is situational awareness and near 100% alertness.

    The stats say within 21 feet but don't measure any closer? I think any smart perp will close within at least 6 to 8 feet or closer before displaying a weapon. Makes it easier not to miss and also gets into the victim's face with intimidation. Also kind of conspicuous to shout from 21 feet. You have to put yourself in the frame of mind of a street smart perp. He is not going to pull a gun at beyond 21 feet because: 1) he is not that good of a shot, 2) the victim can run away and become a difficult moving target. Most of us that have a CCL/CCW practice with our guns which is probably why there is a better percentage of success at farther ranges. There is also more time to take better aim and fire more shots as necessary. Most indoor handgun ranges go out to 50 foot distance and a lot of outdoor handgun ranges have 25 yards as standard!

    To settle the debate, try simulations with a friend. Have him borrow a Soft Air handgun and both of you wear face protection and heavier jackets. Have him draw the Soft Air gun at various distances and shoot at you as often as he can while you draw a dummy practice knife and try to stop him. You could even get a second Soft Air and try drawing and shooting back. I think you might decide to get a CCL/CCW in the end to improve the odds.

    One problem with a knife is it requires training to learn how to immediately stop or immobilize a perp, you need room to move your knife arm, and you have always have to be within grappling range. It is a close contact weapon. If against a stronger guy or someone high on meth, your chances of winning without suffering harm diminishes. If overpowered, the knife can be taken away and used against you. With a handgun, you can stay past arm's length and if it gets within that, you can parry and block with your off arm while drawing and point firing with the gun hand. If I can, I prefer strongside carry (versus crossdraw) for that reason.

    If your knife retaining clip is exposed on the outside of your pocket, you are revealing what you have. If perp has a gun and knows what to look for, then you are at a disadvantage.

    When I was younger and went out to night venues/events with a lot of people around, I used to also carry a small cannister of pepper spray. Gave an option of non-lethal defense. Didn't make sense to carry a knife in addition to a gun for SD. I would carry a BUG if I felt backup was needed.

    As an older guy, I'd recommend to any older CCL/CCW holders to do some active sport that requires quick muscle movements (not golf) to keep the reflexes and adrenaline flow going. Being sedentary will slow your reaction time.
    Last edited by jasgo; March 15th, 2012 at 11:09 PM.

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array marcclarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FelixC View Post
    Unwanted editorials aside I take it the question cannot be answered.
    Sadly, you are correct. There is no national organization that collects data on all reported civilian-involved or CCW (non-LEO) encounters.

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Where the knife is better than a firearm?
    in a kitchen.

    -------------

    3 feet, 3 seconds, 3 shots.
    thats average if shots are fired. and numbers lie
    perhaps 7 times as many incidents go unreported with no shots fired.
    see gun---run away.

    so, how does one compute a table of odds and averages?
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  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I think the 7.5 ft is more... that few people miss at that distance if they are trying to shoot you. The further away you are .... if they are not good with their gun and accuracy, you would have the advantage if you have been practicing at the range, which most CC'ers do.
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  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    From reading the OP link I got the feeling lots of those he had talked to had been SWAT and GIs. They would tend to be the active party in their situations, setting the time, places and the hows of the fight and they would tend to do their things from more distance. Beat cops and CCWers will find it more in their face as the BGs want to have to feeling of control of their victim by their presents of closeness and the cop has to get close to take control of the BG.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  13. #27
    Member Array Outer_Heaven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Sir, here is a link which you might find informative, and which might answer the question which you've posed.

    Gunfighting distance : Jedburgh Corporation
    I can't use this because I am not an LEO. The majority of LEO deaths occur during traffic stops and in second place domestics. I know we have all been pulled over by the police before, so it's easy to see why that 5 foot gap is so easily filled. I'm also sure that the majority of us are familiar with how the confines of a home an put a limit on how far apart you can be from somebody while talking to them.

    It's safe to say that the reason for the distances in those deaths are based on the situations the officers are in. Two situations that any of us aside from our LEO posters are likely to be in.

  14. #28
    Senior Member Array Beans's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    How do you deploy that knife with multiple attackers?
    With agression and a lot of luck

  15. #29
    Member Array jasgo's Avatar
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    Has OP ever field dressed hunting kills (like a deer)? Using a knife can get messy. Kind off topic, but what if a potential perp was HIV+?

  16. #30
    Senior Member Array HK Dan's Avatar
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    85% of persons shot by a handgun survive. 65% of persons stabbed or slashed by a knife survive. It's there, it's repeatable, and it doesn't run out of ammunition. For you "Don't bring a knife to a gunfight" types--watch Marc Denny's "Die Less Often", try a couple of the drills, and you'll see why Denny says "Don't bring a gun to a knife fight". Unless you know some empty hand defenses you'll get cut to ribbons before you can draw.
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