Zimmerman: Self defense or murder? - Page 11

Zimmerman: Self defense or murder?

This is a discussion on Zimmerman: Self defense or murder? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Yoda It appears the above 2 posts 147 and 148 are supposed to be with the Wisconsin incident, not sure how they ...

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Thread: Zimmerman: Self defense or murder?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    It appears the above 2 posts 147 and 148 are supposed to be with the Wisconsin incident, not sure how they got on this Florida incident.
    Nah... We only had a small ADD episode...
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  2. #152
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    I've been on our neighborhood watch (NHW) for the last 6 years, serving in differrent offices and roles since it's humble beginning. When we first started, there were a lot of angry people fed up with the crime and city's seeming inability to do anything.

    I'm really surprised that during the first year of the watch's beginning that no one was ever shot or beaten, as folks' dander was really up and having an organized group behind them empowered them. We had to really tone down some folks and remind them that they were not LEOs - just eyes and ears for LEOs.

    That said, I think this Zimmerman guy may have been taking his role of NHW Captain a little too seriously and like many posts above, played LEO and pushed too hard. All he needed to do was either follow from a safe distance or stay in-place and tell the cops where T went.
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  3. #153
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    My first comment on this subject is that it needs to be analyzed according to the laws of where the incident occurred, in FL. There have been a lot of statements along the lines of, "here in X state, the law is ...", which are completely irrelevant. The second comment is one that has been recited here several times: that there is more to this story than we are aware of. In keeping with these two philosophies, I must have faith in that the authorities in FL will give it due process, and that their decisions will be based upon the evidence. Until such time as the evidence shows something, one way or another, I will not jump to conclusions like many here seem eager to do. We can hypothesize till the end of days about how things went down, but I don't get the impression that either party could be considered innocent. The available evidence shows that. Whether or not it became a justified self defense situation, I can't say based upon the information available and that is the job of the legal system, the same as any other self defense situation. Race, age, size, etc are all relevant only in as much as they contribute to a disparity of force and contribute to the concept of AOJ.

    In hindsight, which is always 20/20, had Zimmerman simply played the good observer, this wouldn't have happened. Hopyard is correct though that in his gated community, especially on community property, he would be in his rights to be there and to confront an intruder.
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  4. #154
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    In hindsight, which is always 20/20, had Zimmerman simply played the good observer, this wouldn't have happened. Hopyard is correct though that in his gated community, especially on community property, he would be in his rights to be there and to confront an intruder.
    And so too the teenager, who had a right to stand his ground, and fend off an apparent attacker.

    What we have here are two people doing what they were legally allowed to do, and neither one of them using the stuff between
    their ears. The consequence of the failure to use what is between the ears was an avoidable tragedy.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    My first comment on this subject is that it needs to be analyzed according to the laws of where the incident occurred, in FL. There have been a lot of statements along the lines of, "here in X state, the law is ...", which are completely irrelevant. The second comment is one that has been recited here several times: that there is more to this story than we are aware of. In keeping with these two philosophies, I must have faith in that the authorities in FL will give it due process, and that their decisions will be based upon the evidence. Until such time as the evidence shows something, one way or another, I will not jump to conclusions like many here seem eager to do. We can hypothesize till the end of days about how things went down, but I don't get the impression that either party could be considered innocent. The available evidence shows that. Whether or not it became a justified self defense situation, I can't say based upon the information available and that is the job of the legal system, the same as any other self defense situation. Race, age, size, etc are all relevant only in as much as they contribute to a disparity of force and contribute to the concept of AOJ.

    In hindsight, which is always 20/20, had Zimmerman simply played the good observer, this wouldn't have happened. Hopyard is correct though that in his gated community, especially on community property, he would be in his rights to be there and to confront an intruder.
    And that noway2 is what we call taking a position... Everyone here has gone one of three ways..

    Pro Z
    Against Z
    Can't make my mind right now/ Can't say.

    People arrive to solutions thru hypothesis, it's just how we humans operate.

    Your hypothesis is that other states' laws are irrelevant and that we should leave it to the authorities..oh and that we should stop hypothesizing

    Thanks for letting us know your position, that is what forums are for.
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    Apparently, the dead kid's family is not too keen on the Sanford PD. They are calling for the FBI to intervene as this is a "racial incident" and therefore a federal crime. Oy!

    Family Of Miami Teen Killed In Central Florida Calling For FBI Probe CBS Miami
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911_Kimber View Post
    And that noway2 is what we call taking a position... Everyone here has gone one of three ways..

    Pro Z
    Against Z
    Can't make my mind right now/ Can't say.

    People arrive to solutions thru hypothesis, it's just how we humans operate.

    Your hypothesis is that other states' laws are irrelevant and that we should leave it to the authorities..oh and that we should stop hypothesizing

    Thanks for letting us know your position, that is what forums are for.
    The reason I am in the can't say crowd is because I have a hard time conceptualizing going from what appears to be a chase, I suspect followed by words of some sort, to what has been claimed as an SD situation. There has been little evidence provided that I can use to evaluate whether or not the SD situation was valid. Whether or not it is a valid SD case will depend on FL law, not Arizona, not Texas, or any other state. In some states, one can be the aggressor and still claim the right of SD under certain circumstances. Were the conditions met for Z to claim self defense in FL? That is what matters, not how much the media inflamed public wants vengeance.
    Last edited by noway2; March 19th, 2012 at 05:14 PM. Reason: grammar
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  9. #159
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    I saw on the news this morning, the "Reverend Al Sharpton" was on his way to "help secure justice".
    Nothing like pouring gas on a fire.
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    Both individuals were seemingly within the law with their actions. Both made decisions that were legally justified.
    Tragically, the outcome was all wrong.

    The legal aspects of this case might change the way laws for us are written. Good or bad, I'm not sure.

    I can't honestly say that I would have reacted much differently from either party involved.
    Very unfortunate.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmxer85 View Post
    Both individuals were seemingly within the law with their actions. Both made decisions that were legally justified.
    Tragically, the outcome was all wrong.

    The legal aspects of this case might change the way laws for us are written. Good or bad, I'm not sure.

    I can't honestly say that I would have reacted much differently from either party involved.
    Very unfortunate.
    First:I would never put myself in a position where this guy did. He was so stupid to figure out the common sense thing to do (hit number one), he apparently failed to heed the advice of the dispatcher (hit number 2) to not follow the kid.
    Second: I do admit I am very well trained in combatives and practice regularly. This kid is only about 15-25 lbs lighter than me. There is no way I would be fearful of my life even if I lost footing and ended up on my back and had a broken arm. NO WAY! And he had 100 lbs on him. He could have rolled over and squashed him.
    Nope, sorry, no way I can see myself shooting the kid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjfleming View Post
    The key to the term "Neighborhood Watch" is WATCH and report to 911, this guy followed the teenager after being told by 911 dispatch not to making it look like a case of looking for trouble.

    ^^^^^^^^SO^^^^^^^



    If a member of your neighborhood watch saw someone lurking/peeping in your window, while one of yours was home alone,
    are you still sticking to the "Neighborhood Watch" is WATCH and report to 911.

    As Hopyard stated, in a gated community, if someone sees someone who they do not know, and wishes to ask that person what they are doing there, they have that right.

    You Jokers also need to quit it with the racial undertones, and stop insinuating that just because the deceased is black that it must have been indeed a racial incident.
    If it was a white kid, in a predominately white upscale neighborhood, wearing a baggy hoodie, and the shooter was also white, who's to say the outcome would not have been the same?

    Oh that's right , all you MMQBing wiseguys with the crystal balls, say it would have been different, cause you were there right????



    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    Apparently, the dead kid's family is not too keen on the Sanford PD. They are calling for the FBI to intervene as this is a "racial incident" and therefore a federal crime. Oy!

    Family Of Miami Teen Killed In Central Florida Calling For FBI Probe CBS Miami

    ^^^^^^^SO if the FBI clears the shooter^^^^


    They will shut up and stand down???

    I'll believe it when I see it.
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  13. #163
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    Despite the outcome, I think the most important thing is to learn what to do and not to do from this incident. And also the consequences of decisions/actions taken when armed.

    One point to consider is that because Zimmerman was legally carrying a gun, did he feel like a "Superman" in the knowledge that he could employ lethal force if he was on the short end of a physical altercation? Early in the 911 call, Zimmerman seemed to indicate that he felt the youth had something in his waist yet still decided to pursue and get into a confrontation. Unwise for at least two reasons, 1) why initiate a gunfight or deadly force confrontation at risk of bodily harm, 2) the confrontation was unnecessary for him and he was not a police officer. Also, he could have drawn the weapon before any physical contact and detained the youth until police arrived but chose not to. Perhaps if Zimmerman also had pepper spray as an option, the outcome could have been different.

    Even if Zimmerman suffered injuries in a scuffle, were they superficial or life-threatening? Was it an avoidable scuffle? The youth was unarmed and smaller too. Doubt if he was martial arts or MMA type of fighting trained. Even though described as a gated community, any unrecognized youth in the area could always be a visiting friend or relative of a family residing in the neighborhood. I'd be astonished if various minorities did not reside there. I live in a 500 home gated community with 24 hour security guards and at times have observed youths strolling around that I did not recognize but ended up to be visiting friends/relatives of residents.

    So I would avoid this type of "Superman" mentality when carrying a gun with a CCW. The gun is simply a tool and for defense only. One cannot let having it take control of your judgement process and common sense. It's probably a worthwhile effort to run through various scenarios in your mind and predetermine what one should do. For example, if I'm eating in a fast food restaurant, I look for a strategic place to sit and then think about what I would do or not do if something were to happen (i.e. robbery, random mass shooting, etc). Also have to take into account if your wife and kids are present too.
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  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    ^^^^^^^SO if the FBI clears the shooter^^^^


    They will shut up and stand down???

    I'll believe it when I see it.
    I don't disagree with you. I am not, however, putting racial undertones into the debate. I simply reported what the family is doing and why - according to the article. I listened to the tapes and did not hear a racial issue, but the tapes are not the whole investigation. From what I have heard and seen, I don't have enough info to say one way or the other on the race issue or the guilt issue. I would not be surprised, however, to see Zimmerman having to fend off both state and federal charges as once the Sharpton/Jackson race-baiters get involved, the easiest way to shut them up is to give them what they want, not necessarily what is right. We will have to wait and see where this goes.
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    And so too the teenager, who had a right to stand his ground, and fend off an apparent attacker.

    What we have here are two people doing what they were legally allowed to do, and neither one of them using the stuff between
    their ears. The consequence of the failure to use what is between the ears was an avoidable tragedy.
    This is where the Florida law is so messed up; it creates the dual mentality,fastest draw wins.I think some amendment is needed that makes the shooter think first. A citizens review, something. We had a gang member released in miami dade because no one came forward in the neighborhood to say he was the aggressor (gang related) An innocent child died in the cross fire.
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