Zimmerman: Self defense or murder?

This is a discussion on Zimmerman: Self defense or murder? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Outer_Heaven I'm curious as to if anyone else has seen the only picture of George Zimmerman that has been released by the ...

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outer_Heaven View Post
    I'm curious as to if anyone else has seen the only picture of George Zimmerman that has been released by the media.
    Attachment 57543
    I'm wondering why he is wearing a a prison jumpsuit in it.

    I still don't believe that the kid was on top of Zimmerman especially after investigating the information that was brought up here.



    I want to hear Zimmerman tell us what happened.
    Sounds like you've already made up your mind to me. Can't see how hearing Zimmerman's side would change that as you'd just choose not to believe it.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    Sounds like you've already made up your mind to me. Can't see how hearing Zimmerman's side would change that as you'd just choose not to believe it.
    I want to hear from Zimmerman why he got out of the car, what T was wearing, and why he found the need to engage the kid. The only judgement I have passed on Zimmerman is that he is already a criminal, that he is a moron for allowing this situation to happen, and that he is a pathetic excuse for a 26 year man old to have allowed himself to be physically bested physically by a child if that even happened.. Before anyone gets on me I have seen a few of those gigantic 13 year old kids that are damn near my height, but T certainly wasn't one of them.

    He broke CC Rule number 1.# Don't do stupid things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    Agreed, but that is not what Zimmerman did. Listening to the 911 call, Zimmerman seemed to just follow the kid and never approached him nor asked him anything. Zimmerman admits the kid actually ran away at one point. There was NO dialogue from Z.
    At some point the two got close enough to each other for the physical fight to happen. One of them said something.
    Zimmerman, I'll conjecture, yelled "hey you get over hear." The kid, I'll also conjecture," responded get the blank away
    from me. That part of a conjectured conversation makes common sense. What we don't know is what happened next.
    We don't know if Zimmerman tried to grab the kid and got clocked, or if the kid cold cocked Zimmerman. We do know
    both had an absolute right to be where they were, to verbally challenge the other, too, as it was the home of both.

    I don't think I'd like someone stalking me like that. Would you?
    No I wouldn't. But we do not know that is what happened. Maybe in that situation I'd be putting my
    hand on the pepper spray or thinking about how I was going knock my stalker on his back side. I suspect
    that is precisely what the kid was thinking. What we don't know is whether he did that part with justification
    or not.

    If you've got a problem with my presence then speak up and ask me what I'm doing there. You know as well as I, that would be the first thing the police would do. I would find it disturbing and suspicious to have someone stalking me in this manner.
    Part in bold. Maybe I have missed something. Did Zimmerman at any point prior to the fight not say something like,
    "neighborhood watch, do you live here?" or, "What are you doing here?" I don't know the answer to whether he uttered
    such a verbal challenge, but he certainly had a right to issue it. Doing so might understandably upset the kid, but
    would that justify knocking Zimmerman on his ass?

    See, we don't know and never will know what caused that violent reaction. We don't know if it was a reasonable response to
    provocation, an insane outburst of anger, or what. All we can do is conjecture. You don't get (or should not get) convictions
    on conjecture unsupported by evidence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outer_Heaven View Post
    I want to hear from Zimmerman why he got out of the car, what T was wearing, and why he found the need to confront the kid. The only judgement I have passed on Zimmerman is that he is already a criminal and that he is a moron for allowing this situation to happen.

    CC Rule number 1.# Don't do stupid things.
    Are you basing that on the prior arrest in which no charge was prosecuted? That doesn't make him a criminal. He had
    a CHL. He made the background check. That doesn't sound like a criminal.

    Just one more point to make sure there is no misunderstanding. I'm really not trying to defend Zimmerman so much as
    I am trying to defend the fact that the police have chosen to state that there is a lack of evidence on which to
    arrest him. That is the reality, and MCP got it straight up in post 52 above, IMO.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Are you basing that on the prior arrest in which no charge was prosecuted? That doesn't make him a criminal. He had
    a CHL. He made the background check. That doesn't sound like a criminal.

    Just one more point to make sure there is no misunderstanding. I'm really not trying to defend Zimmerman so much as
    I am trying to defend the fact that the police have chosen to state that there is a lack of evidence on which to
    arrest him. That is the reality, and MCP got it straight up in post 52 above, IMO.
    Well said.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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    The tapes are not an accurate depiction of what went on. Yes, I agree that Zimmerman should not have followed him in the first place but whose to say that he didn't stop following him and the man in question doubled back and that's when the incident occurred.

    And it's not uncommon for criminals to yell for help when they are hurt. Do you honestly think that if you shoot an wound an attacking individual they are going to just fall over silently or say, "Yeah, you're right. My bad. I deserved that."

    Absolutely not! They are going to scream bloody murder. They are going to scream for help. They are going to accuse you of killing them (which, by the way, you are doing). Self defense is never clean and neat. There is going to be blood and screaming and wailing. You're suddenly going to see someone calling for his mother or praying to Jesus and asking for forgiveness, bargaining for his life, etc, etc, etc.

    The chilling screams for help do not mean innocence or guilt. They are merely primal screams of a terrified and/or wounded individual. Remember, the fox who was stealing chickens and gets caught in the trap will howl with the same kind of terror that a pet dog will.

    Until a full investigation is made with more details I am reserving judgment on either individuals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Outer_Heaven View Post
    I'm curious as to if anyone else has seen the only picture of George Zimmerman that has been released by the media.
    Attachment 57543
    I'm wondering why he is wearing a a prison jumpsuit in it.

    I still don't believe that the kid was on top of Zimmerman especially after investigating the information that was brought up here.



    I want to hear Zimmerman tell us what happened.
    This may be a mug shot for Zimmerman's previous arrest for assaulting a police officer , I believe. The charges were later dismissed but it does raise more questions.

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    One of the things that really gets me about this is the media coverage. Last night the local CBS affiliate (KHOU) ran the story again, this time with computer animation. Of course they didn't bother to include anything about the shooter's injuries and the animation had both the shooter and the deceased standing and about ten feet apart when the shot was fired. About the only similarity between the story that ran last night and the other stories is that it was in Florida, the names are the same and they made sure to include the race of the deceased.

    In my perfect world if civil unrest resulted from the outcome of all this anyone who provides such incendiary and biased reporting would be civilly liable for the damages from any civil unrest. They should either report it accurately and completely or not cover it at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Are you basing that on the prior arrest in which no charge was prosecuted? That doesn't make him a criminal. He had a CHL. He made the background check. That doesn't sound like a criminal.
    The fact that he was charged with assault on an officer raises red flags to me, I was unaware of the outcome of that. The fact he holds a CHL means nothing to me, in AZ anyone aside from a wife beater or felon can get a CHL. Florida isn't very stringent either, 3 years without a violent crime and you're set to go.

    Zimmerman may not be a convicted criminal. But I don't believe that you get charged with AOO for just running your mouth to a cop.

  11. #70
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    The problem with this case is that Zimmerman decides that the young black boy is a criminal before said boy actually breaks the law, or does anything wrong at all. The kid was not breaking into homes, vandalizing vehicles or anything of that sort. He was simply walking. What was he going to do, throw his iced tea at Zimmerman's head?

    I don't think Zimmerman is a racist, but the kid being black more than likely contributed to his suspicion that he was a criminal (especially after hearing the tapes). It is similar logic to when your parents told you as a child to lock the doors and roll up the windows when you entered a bad neighborhood while driving.

    As a 23 year old putting myself in Trayvron's 17 year old shoes I would have been very frightened (and still would be) if someone like Zimmerman had confronted me in that fashion. Think about it for a second, a guy who you don't know is following you around at night while its dark, so you run away and then later he confronts you on foot. Zimmerman is not a cop, so in the boy's eyes he is a STRANGER. And what did our parents tell us about those people? Even if they are kind they are not to be trusted. Tayvron had probably never heard of Zimmerman, or his “neighborhood watch” position so even if that was brought up to him it would have appeared fishy and strange to a young, more than likely frightened kid like that.

    My guess is that Tayvron told Zimmerman to shove it, an argument ensued followed by a physical confrontation and Zimmerman who already made the decision that he was dealing with a criminal "a potentially dangerous person" fired his weapon, who knows why.

    Zimmerman screwed this up in literally every way he possibly could have and even if the 140 pound 17 year old physically bested him (doubtful), it does not justify killing him. He provoked it, much like getting out of your car at a red light to have a word with the jerk behind you who has been honking at you for the post 3 miles is a form of provocation.

    Manslaughter at the very least for me and this Zimmerman guy is a disgrace to people who support gun rights. Let's protect ourselves from the real criminals and not go detective Andy Sipowizc on young kids with Arizona Iced tea cans

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    Welcome to the forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldon Hickey View Post
    This may be a mug shot for Zimmerman's previous arrest for assaulting a police officer , I believe. The charges were later dismissed but it does raise more questions.
    Actually, the report I read stated the previous charges were "dropped". Isn't that different than charges being "dismissed"?

    Also, Zimmerman stated that he was the one screaming for help and that nobody came to help him. I assume they can do some type of voice identification techniques from the recordings of the screaming for help and determine if he was truly the one screaming for help before the shooting. Trayvon's family have stated that they recognize the screams as belonging to their son. I'm sure this will have to be determined to see who was actually yelling for help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tactilame View Post
    ...if some guy approached me and started chasing after me, I would be running too. And if he caught up with me, I'd be putting up a fight. The guy wasn't a police officer, he had no reason to be acting like one. How could the kid know Zimmerman wasn't just some creep coming after him for no reason?
    I agree and that keeps coming up in my developing opinion of this. Even that you are a CCW, neighborhood watch, or a mall security doesn't make you LEO. Martin may have been up to no good or shady, who knows. You do your best a a concerned citizen, I get it. However you need to weigh civic responsibility with personal liability and a little sense.

    I believe Zimmerman's liability begins with pursuit, and I feel that he should go before a Judge. If the situation escalated to warrant the use of deadly force so be it, But I think a judge/jury should decide.

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    Thanks Outer_Heaven

    The witnesses say they heard a boy screaming. It sounds like a young boy from the recording, but we will have to wait and see. Even more interesting is the fact that there could be two gun shots...

    Trayvon should have never been put in that position. How on earth is he supposed to view Zimmerman as a non threatening person, considering the circumstances? Does anyone else think that a 17 year old kid might be a little freaked out/weirded out by Zimmerman's encroaching behavior? The guy was not trained (as a real police officer would be) to communicate in situations like this one. And a cop could at least back up his claim of who he is, while Zimmerman is the community watch dude….come again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Dawg View Post
    I agree and that keeps coming up in my developing opinion of this. Even that you are a CCW, neighborhood watch, or a mall security doesn't make you LEO. Martin may have been up to no good or shady, who knows. You do your best a a concerned citizen, I get it. However you need to weigh civic responsibility with personal liability and a little sense.

    I believe Zimmerman's liability begins with pursuit, and I feel that he should go before a Judge. If the situation escalated to warrant the use of deadly force so be it, But I think a judge/jury should decide.
    I agree with both of you.

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