CPL renewal denied/mich.

This is a discussion on CPL renewal denied/mich. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sad day when a "non MD" can give the state information such as this. Sounds like your therapist needs to have His or her license ...

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  1. #31
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    Sad day when a "non MD" can give the state information such as this. Sounds like your therapist needs to have His or her license checked. Just wait till we get obumer care. We will all be declared "nuts"

    You should not have to get a lawyer to enjoy your 2nd amendment. But looks like you will need to in this case.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    We've had people involuntarily committed on nothing more than misinterpretation of an off hand comment.
    Would you mind elaborating on this? As far as I'm aware, you can't just "be committed." It involves a legal proceeding including independent medical observation in a hospital setting for a period of time. It's not just an off-the-cuff situation; a judge needs to make an order and that doesn't just happen because someone said something.

  4. #33
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    Here's today's take-away lesson for you young folks:

    Never accept the offer of "counseling" or healthcare from anyone you don't pay directly or through your personal insurance. If you pay for their services, you can manage your relationship and all the information garnered from same via HIPAA. If it's a 'free' or government sponsored program, this kind of thing can happen.

    This is what happens when government controls your healthcare without the intermediary of at least an insuror.

    Getting your Social Security disability from your government makes you liable to their rules, and you can never trust the government to have your best interests at heart.
    Stubborn, TVille, phreddy and 2 others like this.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    I like the advice from "Harryball" and "Suntzu" New therapist and good attorney.
    Probably won't be quick or easy though.

    You need a lawyer for three related but distinct issues: 1) to get your license 2) to determine if she committed
    malpractice; 3) to determine if she slandered you by providing the state with false information
    ^^^This^^^
    Lord help me...I just agreed with "Hopyard". Thats a first.

    I know "therapy" is the politically correct thing, possibly even the "in" thing to do, but if you can deal with issues on your own, you'd be much better off. All of us would.

    "MadMac" is right...this is only going to get worse...much worse with the advent of Obamacare.
    Last edited by Stubborn; March 19th, 2012 at 12:45 PM. Reason: additional thought
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  6. #35
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    When you receive a serious debilitating injury that results in extreme pain and lack of mobility to the body then feelings of depression would be normal.
    What normal human being could be HAPPY when they are suffering and in excruciating pain?


    If you are no longer in extreme pain and subsequently no longer depressed then you need to get an attorney to to haul that therapist into court and then she will be depressed and you'll be even happier.

  7. #36
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glock27mark View Post
    i was seeing a therapist to help me in my situation. (not being able to work)...
    Just curious. How much "help" did you receive from said therapist? What precisely was her role in helping you deal with these difficult issues? Did she help you get a job? Provide you with some decent drugs to forget (ignore) your problems? Help you feel better about yourself?
    Hopyard likes this.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    This, and my first question "Is this therapist qualified to diagnose clinical depression?"

    The therapist had to come up with some diagnoses to bill your insurance company. This is one major fault with therapist when your insurance is paying. There are others also.
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  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    Hopyard.....Good Point.
    2 weeks ago my Doc. prescribed Wellbutrin (anti-depressant) for me to help me quit smoking. I don't know why it works but it does.
    I would hate to lose my gun rights or even have to explain to some Government official why I was taking that medication.
    On the other hand.......whenever some wacko shoots up a mall or school everyone asks "Where were the signs, why was he allowed access to guns if he was being treated for an emotional issue, etc, etc."
    There is no right answer.
    Yes, there is a right answer. But it ain't easy. The general public needs much better education about the range
    of mental disorders and the fact that most are of absolutely no concern to anyone but the person who has a problem.

    E.g., there are many people who refuse to make left turns in traffic; their fear of doing that can be so severe that they
    recognize it is abnormal behavior. Yet if that is all that is going on-- and it usually is-- one can hardly view their "social anxiety disorder" as a big deal, even if they take anti-depressants or anti-anxiety meds as an adjunct to behavioral therapy. It would be an absolute crime to deny someone like that a license.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    Just curious. How much "help" did you receive from said therapist? What precisely was her role in helping you deal with these difficult issues? Did she help you get a job? Provide you with some decent drugs to forget (ignore) your problems? Help you feel better about yourself?
    There has been a huge shift in the way many emotional disorders are treated in recent years. The movement has been away from
    traditional long term therapy and toward solving a problem. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is a vast improvement over past
    practice for many people, and many can learn the principles of the "cognitive" part on their own.

    I work with a clinician, a director of an anxiety disorders clinic (I'm a volunteer with a non-profit group) who basically says if your therapist keeps you coming back, you are going to the wrong therapist.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  11. #40
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    If you've never taken prescribed medication for depression, the therapist was out of order. I would sue the therapist for defamation of character.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 74 View Post
    Would you mind elaborating on this? As far as I'm aware, you can't just "be committed." It involves a legal proceeding including independent medical observation in a hospital setting for a period of time. It's not just an off-the-cuff situation; a judge needs to make an order and that doesn't just happen because someone said something.
    One specific incident (and actually a couple of others) occurred in CA. A man made a comment to his psychiatrist about himself.
    She said nothing to him at the moment. He went home and was met by several officers; hauled off for a 72 hour period.

    I don't recall the specifics, but there was something in CA law which allowed him to be taken into custody on the say so of his doc; judicial review followed.

    As he told us his story, it was plain to me that an off hand comment was grossly misinterpreted as a direct threat to take his own life; something he had not attempted and had no interest in whatsoever.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    One specific incident (and actually a couple of others) occurred in CA. A man made a comment to his psychiatrist about himself.
    She said nothing to him at the moment. He went home and was met by several officers; hauled off for a 72 hour period.

    I don't recall the specifics, but there was something in CA law which allowed him to be taken into custody on the say so of his doc; judicial review followed.

    As he told us his story, it was plain to me that an off hand comment was grossly misinterpreted as a direct threat to take his own life; something he had not attempted and had no interest in whatsoever.

    There is another side to (most) of these stories. As someone who trains people in crisis counseling techniques, one of the things my students need to be aware of is the legal requirements when a client says certain things, or exhibits certain behavior.

    An "off hand comment" that even sounds like a threat to take one's own life can require a counselor (licensed or not) to report to authorities.

    If the counselor does not, and the client makes an attempt, the counselor can be held liable (in some states/cities).

    When a counselor hears hundreds of clients, and the vast majority who use certain language or phrasing do in fact represent a threat to themselves, it's hard to hear those comments as "off-handed". Many are cries for help. If one of my students misses a cry for help as "off-handed", the consequences are devastating.

    Of course, getting hauled off for assessment because of some sarcastic remark isn't exactly a good outcome either! Ideally there's a balanced assessment before an intervention call is made. That means "off-hand" comments are pursued and clarified first to avoid stuff like this.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    One specific incident (and actually a couple of others) occurred in CA. A man made a comment to his psychiatrist about himself.
    She said nothing to him at the moment. He went home and was met by several officers; hauled off for a 72 hour period.

    I don't recall the specifics, but there was something in CA law which allowed him to be taken into custody on the say so of his doc; judicial review followed.

    As he told us his story, it was plain to me that an off hand comment was grossly misinterpreted as a direct threat to take his own life; something he had not attempted and had no interest in whatsoever.
    I don't know about California, but we have it here in Florida, it's called the Baker Act

    : The Florida Mental Health Act of 1971 (commonly known as the "Baker Act") is a Florida statute allowing for involuntary examination of an individual.

    The Baker Act allows for involuntary examination (what some call emergency or involuntary commitment). It can be initiated by judges, law enforcement officials, physicians or mental health professionals. There must be evidence that the person

    has a mental illness (as defined in the Baker Act).
    is a harm to self, harm to others, or self neglectful (as defined in the Baker Act).
    Examinations may last up to 72 hours after a person is deemed medically stable and occur in over 100 Florida Department of Children and Families-designated receiving facilities statewide.

    There are many possible outcomes following examination of the patient. This includes the release of the individual to the community (or other community placement), a petition for involuntary inpatient placement (what some call civil commitment), involuntary outpatient placement (what some call outpatient commitment or assisted treatment orders), or voluntary treatment (if the person is competent to consent to voluntary treatment and consents to voluntary treatment). The involuntary outpatient placement language in the Baker Act took effect in 2005.

    The act was named for a Florida state representative, Maxine Baker, who had a strong interest in mental health issues, served as chair of a House Committee on mental health, and was the sponsor of the bill.

    The nickname of the legislation has led to the term "Baker Act" as a transitive verb, and "Baker Acted" as a passive-voice verb, for invoking the Act to force an individual's commitment. Although the Baker Act is a statute only for the state of Florida, use of "Baker Acting" as a verb has become prevalent as a slang term for involuntary commitment in other regions of the United States.
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  15. #44
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    Let's not go too overboard here on the mental illness thing. I personally want all the people around me who carry guns, both professionals and the average citizen to have their full wits about them.

    In this particular thread, it sounds like the OP may be a victim of an over zealous therapist who may have a personal agenda against guns or those who carry them.
    Hopyard likes this.
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  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbald1 View Post
    There is another side to (most) of these stories. As someone who trains people in crisis counseling techniques, one of the things my students need to be aware of is the legal requirements when a client says certain things, or exhibits certain behavior.

    An "off hand comment" that even sounds like a threat to take one's own life can require a counselor (licensed or not) to report to authorities.

    If the counselor does not, and the client makes an attempt, the counselor can be held liable (in some states/cities).

    When a counselor hears hundreds of clients, and the vast majority who use certain language or phrasing do in fact represent a threat to themselves, it's hard to hear those comments as "off-handed". Many are cries for help. If one of my students misses a cry for help as "off-handed", the consequences are devastating.

    Of course, getting hauled off for assessment because of some sarcastic remark isn't exactly a good outcome either! Ideally there's a balanced assessment before an intervention call is made. That means "off-hand" comments are pursued and clarified first to avoid stuff like this.
    Well legality aside, the doc's actions sure did destroy the doctor patient relationship. I hear about the unjust outcomes caused
    by the nervous Nels in the profession. While I understand your view point and why you teach your students as you do, close inquiry is needed instead of knee jerk reactions. The result of such blanket policies is what? The patients lie! They don't come
    near telling the truth for fear of the reaction.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

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