CPL renewal denied/mich.

This is a discussion on CPL renewal denied/mich. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Stubborn I don't know about California, but we have it here in Florida, it's called the Baker Act I seem to recall ...

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Thread: CPL renewal denied/mich.

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stubborn View Post
    I don't know about California, but we have it here in Florida, it's called the Baker Act
    I seem to recall quite a long thread about this a few years back.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  3. #47
    Member Array Doubledown's Avatar
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    Back when I was 22 (seems like a century ago) I was hurt during a summer job, crushing 3 vertebrae and loosing feeling and movement in my right leg for about 2 months. Constant pain but even worse was the thoughts that I would never ride my motorcycle or play ball with my kids (didn't even have any then) or any of the myriad of other stupid things you think when all you can do is lay in bed in a brace to try to avoid surgery. Add to that the workers comp company doctor claiming "I had no identifiable injury or source of disability" so they stopped paying for everything and depression will creep in to even the most upbeat person on the planet. I never was diagnosed with clinical depression nor was I given meds. After 3 years or rehab and learning to walk again I am 95% of what I was before (only fatter after laying in bed for almost a year). Now at age 44 I may not be able to run 5-7 miles a day like I could but I can play ball with my kids and ride my motorcycle and do anything else I want within reason.

    My point is that you need to find another therapist, one with lots of letters after their name, to do a current evaluation so you can appeal your gun board's decision. At the time you may have been more depressed than you can recognize, but a social workers opinion will hold no weight against an actual M.D./PhD and a current eval should bring your permit back without the need for even more expensive lawyers.

  4. #48
    Member Array Doubledown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Well legality aside, the doc's actions sure did destroy the doctor patient relationship. I hear about the unjust outcomes caused
    by the nervous Nels in the profession. While I understand your view point and why you teach your students as you do, close inquiry is needed instead of knee jerk reactions. The result of such blanket policies is what? The patients lie! They don't come
    near telling the truth for fear of the reaction.
    Here is another one just recently in TX. My friend went through a horrible series of botched surgeries leaving him unable to work, he was a surgeon and had a successful practice as well as a career as a reservist. He now has no use of his right hand and difficulty walking or standing. He had to fight for 4 years to get his disability from the government. He is an incredibly intelligent guy and poured all of his energy into fighting and preparing with hundreds of pages of documents etc. After he won he jokingly said to his Doc (that he knew for many years as a friend and colleague before becoming a patient) "after all this I guess I need to find a new reason to wake up tomorrow". When he got home the police were waiting and he went in on a 72 hour hold even though he was not on depression meds and the doc was not a psych doc.

    In this world of lawsuits there is little room left for judgement calls and cover you butt is the new standard. Funny how your survivors can sue if the doc does not report you but you can't sue if they lock you up for a BS reason.

  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Well legality aside, the doc's actions sure did destroy the doctor patient relationship. I hear about the unjust outcomes caused
    by the nervous Nels in the profession. While I understand your view point and why you teach your students as you do, close inquiry is needed instead of knee jerk reactions. The result of such blanket policies is what? The patients lie! They don't come
    near telling the truth for fear of the reaction.
    I completely agree (especially with the bold part). I also think blanket responses to mental health providers, educators, and others in crisis response situations who make self-injury threat assessments are of little help in these discussions.

    It's a fine (and scary) line to be in sometimes....not unlike the decisions CCDW holders may have to make. One must decide whether to take an action (or inaction) that could be a primary factor in the death of another.

    In the counselor's case, a good counselor would pursue any statement a client made that might indicate self-injury, first with the client. Sometimes counselors don't have that luxury.

    I've been in both situations: I've had to take a lot of time to evaluate someone in crisis, and I've had to make a decision very quickly, with less information than I'd like to have, about whether a client is at high risk. It's not fun at all....and it's often a no-win situation. If I call, and I'm wrong, I've ruined that relationship and caused a lot of distress. If I don't call, and I'm wrong....well, that's a phone call that's devastating to get.

    When counselors/mental health workers are poorly trained, have little empathy, or just don't do their jobs well, bad stuff happens.
    Hopyard and stancehold like this.

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by drbald1 View Post
    I completely agree (especially with the bold part). I also think blanket responses to mental health providers, educators, and others in crisis response situations who make self-injury threat assessments are of little help in these discussions.

    It's a fine (and scary) line to be in sometimes....not unlike the decisions CCDW holders may have to make. One must decide whether to take an action (or inaction) that could be a primary factor in the death of another.

    In the counselor's case, a good counselor would pursue any statement a client made that might indicate self-injury, first with the client. Sometimes counselors don't have that luxury.

    I've been in both situations: I've had to take a lot of time to evaluate someone in crisis, and I've had to make a decision very quickly, with less information than I'd like to have, about whether a client is at high risk. It's not fun at all....and it's often a no-win situation. If I call, and I'm wrong, I've ruined that relationship and caused a lot of distress. If I don't call, and I'm wrong....well, that's a phone call that's devastating to get.

    When counselors/mental health workers are poorly trained, have little empathy, or just don't do their jobs well, bad stuff happens.
    I'll just say that in my volunteer work, I hear from suicidal people about 2-3 times a year. The folks I deal with always--without
    exception-- settle down once they find out that their underlying illness can be treated; that they are not alone; and that there
    are total strangers willing to listen to them. They perk up when they discover they aren't, "out of their minds," or as the teens tend to say of themselves "I'm a freak," that they aren't.

    I don't hear from folks who are psychotic, nor from the people who really want to do it. Such people don't have any reason to scour the internet to find help; they made their mind up. They don't need help from the volunteers at a non-profit. Their solution is at hand.

    Common sense is that the person who goes in to a clinic of their own free will
    is seeking a solution and not an end. A psychologist, a psychiatrist, a social worker, contrary to what many people believe, and judicial system often seems to pretend, is not a mind reader. No one is.
    stancehold likes this.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by sgb View Post
    This, and my first question "Is this therapist qualified to diagnose clinical depression?"
    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post
    See different doctor after all it’s only an opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stubborn View Post
    I like the advice from "Harryball" and "Suntzu" New therapist and good attorney.
    Probably won't be quick or easy though.


    ^^^This^^^
    Lord help me...I just agreed with "Hopyard". Thats a first.

    I know "therapy" is the politically correct thing, possibly even the "in" thing to do, but if you can deal with issues on your own, you'd be much better off. All of us would.

    "MadMac" is right...this is only going to get worse...much worse with the advent of Obamacare.


    ^^^^^^All this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    P.S. Stubborn,

    When I first joined DC, I found myself wondering where Hopyard was coming from.
    After I've been here a while, I realize, that I think he's for firearms ownership, the Red White and Blue, apple pie, Base ball, and the American way of life.
    I find him well thought out, and smart. I don't agree with him all the time, but I agree with him enough of the times.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    On a side note related to this discussion. I know of several soldiers still serving and retired who will not seek treatment for any disorder whether it be possible PTSD or substance abuse because they fear that it may hurt them with firearm ownership and CCP issues. Sad when folks want to do the right thing and get treatment they feel it may harm them. That include marital counseling unless with a chaplain.
    Something even the private sector will need to worry about when the governments gets full access to your medical including mental health records.

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    Something even the private sector will need to worry about when the governments gets full access to your medical including mental health records.

    Michael
    The private sector already has it all and passes it around like candy, HIPPA notwithstanding. Uncle get his peek when
    dealing with everyone over 65; even with CHL applications. I know I sign permission for them to look at any of my
    medical records though as far as I know they have never done so and wouldn't begin to know which docs I do see.

    I've a sick computer in the shop, three weeks now. The HD has Excel sheets with my lab results for several years; it has
    the names of my docs; letters to them; the search histories I've done about my various ills, the temp files for various
    correspondence with Medco. Privacy is gone. The only thing one has left is a chance for a certain amount of anonymity--something most of us have tossed away with numerous posts here.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  10. #54
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    HOLY CRAP!

    #1 - All guns but 1 at a buddies house, until this crap is over!
    #2 - LAWYER!
    #3 - New Therapist


    Plus I'd sue that quack who did this to you, once the issue is resolved!
    Hopyard likes this.

  11. #55
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    First I would find out exactly what the reporting requirements are for mental health into the government gun checks.

    Then I would find out if these requirements were adhered to by the therapist.

    What are the professional qualifications of the therapist?

    Is it possible he will not change his diagnosis to avoid being found guilty of insurance fraud?

    Can you get a copy of all his notes?

    Can you get an out of state permit that is recognized in your state?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  12. #56
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    Medical records should be sealed, PERIOD.

    This type of harassment is intentional, or so I believe. It's part of a greater plan to strip as many Americans of their 2nd Amendment rights as they possibly can. According to studies, everyone will suffer from depression at some point in their life. Yes, everyone.

    Depression Fact Sheet: Depression Statistics and Depression Causes

    Depression is a natural part of human emotion. Stripping someone of their right to personal defense for having an emotional response to lifes circumstances would be similar to stripping them of their rights for falling in love, getting angry, or even being happy. "Depression" sets in when you're overwhelmed. Who here hasn't been overwhelmed? Felt out of control? Felt uncertain about the future? Who here has been through a break-up with a boyfriend or girlfriend and stopped eating, hanging out with friends, drank excessively or had a hard time getting up in the morning? You were clinically depressed. Should you have lost your rights over a break-up and the subsequent emotional response?

    Here's the really bad part. Depression in most cases is temporary. Things like this cause people to NOT seek help when they may need it because they're in fear of losing their rights. The government is trapping people and preventing them from getting help for something that's completely treatable - and temporary. It's criminal if you ask me.

    Don't get me started on the non-sense about "domestic violence". My good buddy lost his gun rights because a vengeful ex-girlfriend called the police on him to file a false report claiming he hit her in a disagreement knowing it would cost him what he held most dear, his firearms collection. What really happened? He called their wedding off because she was cheating on him. He was convicted of a misdemeanor. She later admitted in writing that she fabricated the story. It was taken to the DA who refused to throw the conviction out. He is still fighting to get his CCW back 6 years later.

    I'm sorry, I digress. But this stuff really irks me to no end.
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    I had my annual spinal cord injury evaluation at the VA,one part is talking to a shrink,she asked me if I suffer from any depression,tend to stay in bed for long periods of time etc.My answer was nope I don't have any depression,I have support groups if I need to talk etc.
    I could have said I get depressed every time I turn on the news.
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    How did they gain access to your personal medical records? I thought they are sealed and fall under Dr. Patient confidentiality. New Dr, new evaluation. Talk with a lawyer first!

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    Ok, quickly reading the all the post, first off it seems to me that the one thing that might have made a difference was that the OP let his CPL renewal date pass. I know there are many reasons this could happen, short of funds for the renewal class and permit fees, busy schedule, just slipped through the cracks. I wonder if had he done his renewal before the CPL expired, would the gun board have dug into his medical records?

    Secondly, someone mentioned his disability being related to his emotional state, but that was not what I got from his original post. I assumed he was on disability due to his back injury. Having had to help my daughter fight for her disablilty caused by a stroke that was caused by a heart tumor, I know how frustating it can be. The standard procedure seems to be that the government denies all claims. You can appeal, and if you have enough money to hire a good laywer you may eventually win.

    In my daughters case she was denied and with out employment for two years. She finally found a lawyer that was willing to take her case after she was turned down by others, even those that advertise on TV. "Been turned down for disability? We can help". The lawyer that finally got her her disability explained that some of these laywers are not willing to take these cases until 5 years have passed because their fees are based on 25% of the back disability that the client eventually gets paid. The govenment pays the check right to the laywer from the clients disabilty account.

    So the OP needs to first of, get a new thearapist. Perhaps the NRA has a list of doctors that are not anti-gun? Then he needs to get that doctor and a lawyer to draft a statment that shows that the original therapist never treated the OP for clinical depression, and that the OP does not suffer from depression. Just being physically disabled does not mean that a person should be denied the right to self protection, if anything it's more of a reason to carry due to the inabilty to defend or flee.

  16. #60
    Distinguished Member Array phreddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supertac45 View Post
    The therapist had to come up with some diagnoses to bill your insurance company. This is one major fault with therapist when your insurance is paying. There are others also.
    Also, they need you to have a problem so that you have to come back and they can continue to bill your insurance company.

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