Noticing a new trend - Page 2

Noticing a new trend

This is a discussion on Noticing a new trend within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Suntzu, I think you are right. They have a hammer, and everything looks like a nail........

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Suntzu, I think you are right. They have a hammer, and everything looks like a nail.....
    AOK, tacman605, suntzu and 1 others like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    I would much rather get in "trouble" than shot, stabbed, beaten, etc. Too many people on here think they're going to have the time to go down their list of choices of response to a situation. I'm not about pulling a gun for every "what if", but at the same time I'm not going to hesitate.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I would much rather get in "trouble" than shot, stabbed, beaten, etc. Too many people on here think they're going to have the time to go down their list of choices of response to a situation. I'm not about pulling a gun for every "what if", but at the same time I'm not going to hesitate.
    Being prepared is one thing. Making the gun your first and only choice, is not a good idea....People need to understand, that not everyone that says "Hi" is a deadly force encounter.
    suntzu and Dadsnugun like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  4. #19
    Member Array stancehold's Avatar
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    I feel there are too many variables and perspectives to speculate. I would never brandish. I would never want to prematurely perceive someone as threatening or attacking that did not have that intent. But, this is where it can turn into several shades of grey. I believe the correct answer is also dependent on the CWL individual's condition/physical status. If they have a physical disability, elderly, small stature, etc. they will not be able to run or engage in hand-to-hand combat and won't be afforded the luxury of waiting to the last possible millisecond. What our answer may be at 25 yrs. of age may be quite different than what our answer may be at 75 yrs. of age.

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Being prepared is one thing. Making the gun your first and only choice, is not a good idea....People need to understand, that not everyone that says "Hi" is a deadly force encounter.
    Here we go, arguing the extremes. This is the "trend" that's starting to bug the crap out of me. You don't want to shoot somebody, fine neither do I. But I will. Will you have the chance?
    MleeC likes this.

  6. #21
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    The thing about it is guys thinking ahead, preparing for, looking around, being aware of your surroundings, knowing what is or is not a true threat, being able to draw and engage while moving and so on are all things gained from TRAINING or actual life encounters. Someone already stated not many have that type of experiences nor would they want them so that leaves training.

    In some of the instances given by XXX and others, how many would actually recognize the threat and have the training or mindset to act accordingly? How many would freeze up or overreact? As stated don't over estimate your abilities, real bad guys don't really care that you are armed they do care if you show skill with that firearm then you are a threat otherwise you are simply another victim with a pretty custom whatever that will soon be theirs. Just because you can quickdraw in front of the T.V. and beat the bad guy in the opening credits to the first shot or you have watched all the episodes of The Unit, 24, COPS and every Jason Bourne movie made, you are not squat to him unless you have the training and knowledge to go with it.

    I hate to say it gents but yes sometimes you gotta wait til you see and identify a weapon/threat to draw. Yes it is possible that it will be very, very close to being to late that is why you have to TRAIN for those times so you are better than the other guy. You have to face the fact that your gun is secondary to your SA and your ability to defend your own weapon. Just like HB said "Being prepared is one thing".
    suntzu, First Sgt and SWIll like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Of course situations are different. My problem is how embolden some folks are in a situation where they feel threatened. To para phrase some "command them to stop. If they don't I draw my weapon". I am looking at it this way: Somebody commands me to stop and I see them reaching under their coat I would start thinking that he is the BG and might draw if I see a weapon and I may shoot then. I would be justified most likely since the guy initiated getting his weapon first. That is where I see the problem. A person who has it in thier mind to take a provocative action when the BG is not a BG nor a threat. Now, who is now justified in shooting?
    That in a nutshell is what I was tying to say. What someone thinks is a good idea and being prepared to shoot can be interpreted by the other guy as being provocative. Now you have two GG's that can end in disaster if they are thinking the same thing

    GG1: "I will put my hand on my weapon"
    GG2: "Oh shoot, he is reaaching for a weapon, I should also
    GG1: Oh no! I was right, he is reaching for a weapon! I must draw and scare him
    GG2: OMG he is getting his weapon out!

    I prefer SA and always looking for a retreat or movement at an angle. Get off the side walk, change direction.

    My question to you would be: what was GG2 doing to make GG1 feel threatened enough to even think his gun was potentially necessary?

    I pass by a LOT of people throughout my day-to-day life and I have yet to feel the need to draw a firearm on anyone... except for once and I didn't even have a gun but that's another story.

    My point is that there is going to be some precursor actions that are going to indicate "threat" before someone goes for a gun and I should hope that all GGs are not running around being threatening and putting themselves in situations where people are thinking they need to defend themselves from a GG.

    BGs stare, if there is more than one of them they often start communicating with one another while looking at you. It's a universal sign that someone is talking about you.. everyone looks at the object they are talking about if it is present and if you are the object of conversation the BGs are going to have a very hard time NOT looking at you. Besides, they have to look at you in order to determine how to size you up and best decide how to attack you. People paying close attention to you warrant close attention back as casual encounters with average individuals (even those with increased SA) do not warrant staring and close examination unless you are dressed like a chicken and clucking as you walk down the street.

    So, someone is playing close attention to you and making you nervous. You're wondering why. You are keeping your eye on that individual and suddenly you see him take off in your direction but now he's pretending not to be paying close attention to you but at the same time you are seeing him glance up at you often. BIG RED WARNING FLAGS. He's trying to make himself look non-threatening and like he's not really paying as much attention to you as he really is. People with honest reasons to approach you do not try to hide their interest in you. They walk straight up to you. Sometimes criminals will do this as well as they ask for the time or for money or for help so it's something to consider.

    Your spidey senses are tingling big time. Something is not right.

    He gets closer to you and you decide to err on the side of caution, turn and confront the individual and say, "Hey! Stop!" while you speed your garment aside.

    As stated before, if you indicate you have a gun a lot of time the BG will just up and run. A GG (especially one who has no clue about guns) won't even recognize the gesture.

    A GG is going to listen to what you say because his intent was not to harm or frighten you. He will often tell you what he wanted right there. "Hey, sorry I scared you. I thought you were my friend, so-and-so." or "Hey, my car broke down and I was wondering if you could give me a jump." or "Sorry, I'm selling tickets to my kid's school play," whatever.... If you repeat the command to get away they will likely say, "Have a good night" and be on their way.

    And you sigh in relief and get to go home.

    It's when people start to inch closer or get upset that you need to start really worrying. "Hey, man, what's your problem?!" or "All I want is a cigarette." Criminals try to get VERY close to you before they attack. The closer the better. This means they are not going to respect your request for space or for them to stop.

    If you repeat a command to stop or get away or "GET BACK!" and they keep coming you would be an idiot if you didn't think something untoward was going on. A GG is not going to keep ignoring your commands to get back and stay away... not unless they are COMPLETE idiots, too.

    Posturing is going to be everything here. Are they standing tall, eye's wide, surprised that you are commanding them to get back? Or are they lowering their center of gravity and preparing to rush you? Low and grounded = steadying himself for an attack... high and surprised = VERY poor/unstable position. Anyone anticipating a fight, unless they are VERY good actions can't help but lower their center of gravity and start to crouch forward.. especially anyone who's actually been in a fight before.

    I could go on but the point here is there is a TON of nonverbal communication going on that is going to be key in determining whether someone is truly intent on hurting you or just coming up to ask you if they can borrow your cell phone to call a tow truck.

    If GG2 is being a complete idiot and approaching someone in a threatening manner he best learn to stop, step back, and disengage before he does get himself in a lot of trouble. If GG1 can't read nonverbal communication and determine who around him is threatening and who is an average individual he's going to have to do a lot of explaining next time he draws his gun on someone heading in the same direction as he is.

    Case in point: A couple of months ago my car died at a restaurant. I was about 6 months pregnant and looking for someone to help me jump start my car. It was hot, my son was already in the car. I had jumper cables in my hand... I just needed a second, started vehicle. A black car pulled in the parking lot and I began to approach it. As the man and woman got out of the car, I stood an acceptable distance away and said, "Excuse me, but could you..." before I even finished my sentence the man yelled, "WE CAN'T HELP YOU!"

    Taken back I took a step back, pointed at my car and said, "I just need a jump."

    "NO! We can't help you!"

    At that I turned and walk away and he and the woman he was with walked right past me, my jumper cables and my car with its hood open into the restaurant. (He was probably a member here.)

    Notice, I stopped a ways away from them to not frighten them or be threatening. I was polite. When shut down immediately, I was surprised and turned to point at my problem.. my car... the subject I was trying to talk to them about. When they shut me down again, I just left. That's a pretty typical encounter of someone who is innocently asking for help.

    Before I knew it someone who had seen the encounter from the door of the restaurant came out and offered to give me a jump. Thank God there are still good people in the world who aren't terrified that a pregnant woman with a 2 y/o in the car, her hood open and jumper cables in her hands means to gut them like a fish and sell their organs on the black market.

    Nonverbal communication is everything in these types of scenarios. If you don't know how to interpret it, it's probably a good time to start learning.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Does it really matter what GG2 is doing to make GG1 nervous? If he is walking toward him asking him a question and won't stop when commanded to he is not breaking any laws. He could be a drunk, or some person that is unaware. It is GG1's responsibility if armed to make a correct assesment. It is not the responsibility of GG2 do try to make him feel safe.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    The thing about it is guys thinking ahead, preparing for, looking around, being aware of your surroundings, knowing what is or is not a true threat, being able to draw and engage while moving and so on are all things gained from TRAINING or actual life encounters. Someone already stated not many have that type of experiences nor would they want them so that leaves training.

    In some of the instances given by XXX and others, how many would actually recognize the threat and have the training or mindset to act accordingly? How many would freeze up or overreact? As stated don't over estimate your abilities, real bad guys don't really care that you are armed they do care if you show skill with that firearm then you are a threat otherwise you are simply another victim with a pretty custom whatever that will soon be theirs. Just because you can quickdraw in front of the T.V. and beat the bad guy in the opening credits to the first shot or you have watched all the episodes of The Unit, 24, COPS and every Jason Bourne movie made, you are not squat to him unless you have the training and knowledge to go with it.

    I hate to say it gents but yes sometimes you gotta wait til you see and identify a weapon/threat to draw. Yes it is possible that it will be very, very close to being to late that is why you have to TRAIN for those times so you are better than the other guy. You have to face the fact that your gun is secondary to your SA and your ability to defend your own weapon. Just like HB said "Being prepared is one thing".
    I am with Tacman on this (yes, twice in one month we agree on somthing) 100 percent. Some have posted they live in bad areas. Well, then you train for your threat and enviroment.

  10. #25
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Here we go, arguing the extremes. This is the "trend" that's starting to bug the crap out of me. You don't want to shoot somebody, fine neither do I. But I will. Will you have the chance?
    For better or worse, the criteria for using lethal self defense in almost every state is fear of imminent death, sexual assault, or grave bodily harm. Note the word "imminent." It applies to death, sexual assault and grave bodily harm.

    A citizen does not have the legal right to resort to their sidearm to deal with "shady charaters'", disparity of force, people who might be armed, or even if they feel "threatened". Notice the word "threatened" is not listed as a criteria for most states.

    I may not have time to draw, but if someone's simply going to kill me, they already have the intent, the means and are already far ahead of my OODA loop since I am a defensive role player. I'll be dead.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Does it really matter what GG2 is doing to make GG1 nervous? If he is walking toward him asking him a question and won't stop when commanded to he is not breaking any laws. He could be a drunk, or some person that is unaware. It is GG1's responsibility if armed to make a correct assesment. It is not the responsibility of GG2 do try to make him feel safe.
    Does it matter? Of course it matters, it's what sets the whole encounter in motion. The one thing we can never communicate well over the net is why we felt there was a problem. And that feeling is generally what you are acting on. Unless someone is physically attacking you, it's all based on gut feeling to begin with. I've had folks send up red flags and end up being folks that were not too smart but needed some help. I've been in stores and totally ignored someone that had my wife's complete attention and not for a good reason. All that was based on what they were doing or how they were acting until we had better info to go on.
    21bubba likes this.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Does it really matter what GG2 is doing to make GG1 nervous? If he is walking toward him asking him a question and won't stop when commanded to he is not breaking any laws. He could be a drunk, or some person that is unaware. It is GG1's responsibility if armed to make a correct assesment. It is not the responsibility of GG2 do try to make him feel safe.
    I agree with you. It's not a GG's job to make someone feel safe but it's always a good idea to be polite and not instigate a fight or be threatening, just in general.

    My point was not that people should walk on egg shells but that threatening demeanor is often very recognizable from nonthreatening demeanor and will alert a GG as to whether or not he needs to even consider a firearm or not.

    It goes along with your AOJ.

    Do they have the ability to do you great bodily harm or kill you? The closer they get the more ability they have. Do they have the opportunity? Again, they are getting closer and closer, more and more opportunity. Now.. do you feel as though you are in jeopardy? That's the big question.

    Listen to your gut, read the nonverbal communication. No, we don't get it right all the time and sometimes, yes, you do have to wait until it all goes down for you to respond and that's how the cards fall, but I'm not going to tell someone they were wrong for brandishing a weapon when they reasonably felt they were being threatened even though no weapon was present.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Gotcha

  14. #29
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    Its all about using common sense.

    You either have it and get through it.
    Or you dont.
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    Here we go, arguing the extremes. This is the "trend" that's starting to bug the crap out of me. You don't want to shoot somebody, fine neither do I. But I will. Will you have the chance?
    No extremes here. Not even arguing. Your gun should not be the first choice in every situation, thats all, like it or not. I do not disagree with you on shooting someone, if you must you must, if not then dont. However, just because someone approaches you doesnt mean its all out war. Ill post a scenario in the scenario section. Tell me what you think. Weapon, no weapon.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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