Noticing a new trend - Page 3

Noticing a new trend

This is a discussion on Noticing a new trend within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by chiefjason Does it matter? Of course it matters, it's what sets the whole encounter in motion. The one thing we can never ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Does it matter? Of course it matters, it's what sets the whole encounter in motion. The one thing we can never communicate well over the net is why we felt there was a problem. And that feeling is generally what you are acting on. Unless someone is physically attacking you, it's all based on gut feeling to begin with. I've had folks send up red flags and end up being folks that were not too smart but needed some help. I've been in stores and totally ignored someone that had my wife's complete attention and not for a good reason. All that was based on what they were doing or how they were acting until we had better info to go on.
    The point was it is the responsibility of the person armed to make the correct decision. That responsibility falls solely on the shoulders of the CC'er.


  2. #32
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    I will reach for my firearm only if I'm ready to kill someone.
    If I touch my firearm, someone is going to die.
    Simple.
    Go with the glow

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Being prepared is one thing. Making the gun your first and only choice, is not a good idea....People need to understand, that not everyone that says "Hi" is a deadly force encounter.
    I completely agree with Harryball. In my 51 years I have yet to have someone say Hi then threaten me in any way. That said I still need my SA turned on
    because you never know the next time might be the exception. I think I have the sense and intelligence to know when something doesn't feel right.
    Again SA is key.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    The point was it is the responsibility of the person armed to make the correct decision. That responsibility falls solely on the shoulders of the CC'er.
    Ehhh... I wouldn't exactly say that.

    Someone who comes running up to you and says, "I'm gonna kill you, man!" and get's shot can't suddenly claim it was a big joke and he didn't intend to do any harm. His actions and what he says is going to have an impact on what happens. If he truly did not intend to hurt anyone then he shouldn't have been making those kinds of threats.

    Now, if you know the person and he says, "Hey, man, I'm gonna kill you," and you know it's a joke then, yeah, you are the idiot but those things are important.

    As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. If someone doesn't want to be perceived as a threat they shouldn't be acting in a threatening manner. I think there is a shared responsibility between the individual in question and the CCer.

    Certainly the CCer has a much graver responsibility but it doesn't mean there isn't some placed at the feet on someone acting like a fool.

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Ehhh... I wouldn't exactly say that.

    Someone who comes running up to you and says, "I'm gonna kill you, man!" and get's shot can't suddenly claim it was a big joke and he didn't intend to do any harm. His actions and what he says is going to have an impact on what happens. If he truly did not intend to hurt anyone then he shouldn't have been making those kinds of threats.

    Now, if you know the person and he says, "Hey, man, I'm gonna kill you," and you know it's a joke then, yeah, you are the idiot but those things are important.

    As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. If someone doesn't want to be perceived as a threat they shouldn't be acting in a threatening manner. I think there is a shared responsibility between the individual in question and the CCer.

    Certainly the CCer has a much graver responsibility but it doesn't mean there isn't some placed at the feet on someone acting like a fool.
    That is an extreme. I am talking about a person minding their own business and causing someone to get excited by a combination of innocent actions. Hoodie, not listening to a command to stop, "looking like a gangster". I am not talking about overtly doing something that is MEANT to provoke a response. Come on Lime, you know what I mean.
    Situation: I am wearing a hoodie at night walking down a street in a not so good neighborhood. I am looking down with headphones on. GG sees me approaching looking like I am on drugs from bobbing my head with the music, my hands are in my pocket. I do not hear is command to stop because of the music. Now, whose responsibility is it to not cause a misunderstanding? If the GG got nervous enough to display a firearm, even if it was just touching the butt of the weapon then I would have to think I am in trouble and jump the guy. Otherwise if the GG did nothing or caused seperation becasue they felt a threat then nothing would happen. That is what I meant.

    In Bold: It is not against the law to act like a fool. Your example is a bit different. There is a threat becasue it was voiced, not percieved. I am talking about percieved threats and what actions folks do.

  6. #36
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    but I'm not going to tell someone they were wrong for brandishing a weapon when they reasonably felt they were being threatened even though no weapon was present.

    My point exactly. There is a large gap between a girl scout selling cookies and a thug approaching you. The girl scout gets a break, the thug, not so much.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    That is an extreme. I am talking about a person minding their own business and causing someone to get excited by a combination of innocent actions. Hoodie, not listening to a command to stop, "looking like a gangster". I am not talking about overtly doing something that is MEANT to provoke a response. Come on Lime, you know what I mean.
    Situation: I am wearing a hoodie at night walking down a street in a not so good neighborhood. I am looking down with headphones on. GG sees me approaching looking like I am on drugs from bobbing my head with the music, my hands are in my pocket. I do not hear is command to stop because of the music. Now, whose responsibility is it to not cause a misunderstanding? If the GG got nervous enough to display a firearm, even if it was just touching the butt of the weapon then I would have to think I am in trouble and jump the guy. Otherwise if the GG did nothing or caused seperation becasue they felt a threat then nothing would happen. That is what I meant.

    In Bold: It is not against the law to act like a fool. Your example is a bit different. There is a threat becasue it was voiced, not percieved. I am talking about percieved threats and what actions folks do.
    In that situation you are not talking about someone who is threatening. Why would the GG be commanding the individual to stop at all? You seem to be going to the other extreme.

    I'm talking about scenarios where there is or has been questionable actions that could be reasonably conceived as threatening and that is why the GG is even considering drawing their firearm, not just drawing their gun because....

    If someone is not acting threatening at all then there should be no reason for him to fear being unjustly drawn on. On the other hand, people should not be drawing their firearms on someone who is not showing any signs whatsoever of being a threat and I, personally, have not seen any posts indicating such.

    Now, could there be a guy who just willy-nilly walks up to you, hands in pocket, buds in ears and IS a threat? Certainly. He could be using the buds in his ears as a decoy to make you question whether or not he is hearing your commands. In truth he could have zero music playing and he's very alert to what is going on. But, in that case you would have no choice but to wait until a threat presented itself before you were justified because, as you said, a man walking down the street in a hoodie does not a criminal make.

  8. #38
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    Lima I agree with your points however I feel murphy's law will kick in at some point and everyone has their own ideas about what bothers them.

    When I am home I ride Harleys. Up until last month I did not own a car just my Harley's so I ride no matter what the weather and so on. I have a shaved head, bushy mustache, tattoos and on occasion I wear shirts like James Yeager but anyways the point is I look like what I am, a biker. Since I ride all the time I sometimes wear a hoodie under my leather jacket. When I get off the bike I may have my beanie pulled down and hoodie up. This bothers people for whatever reason.

    I have no ill will towards anyone, leave me and mine alone and I will leave you alone, I do not have a racist bone in my body but due to appearences I am tagged as some redneck, skinhead, racist. Some people are intimidated by this I have had them crossover to the other side of the sidewalk or wait for me to walk by them before proceeding.
    If someone felt threatened by my appearance and made a furtive movement to draw or display a weapon what Suntzu described could probably happen.
    Now hopefully they would be smart enough or rational enough to give some kind of "warning" so to speak but as others have stated I don't have to listen to anything they say I can walk where I want when I want in a public parking lot however I am also smart enough that should I see one of these nervous nellies ready to draw their master blaster 500 yes I would comply and go around. It would be up to me to avert the potential problem as they have already made their mind up.

    My point being is this. What bothers some or puts their spidey senses on super high alert may not bother me at all. In fact when I am home I have to change my SA to a different type of awareness to deal with the hometown enviroment. I have been over here so long with the gunfire, rocket attacks, car bombs and rounds being fired in my direction does not bother me anymore. I have to actively seek out and look hard for what could be a threat to me in my home enviroment and have to lower my guard so to speak to identify and be ready for potential problems.

    MadMac you are absolutely correct we are already behind the power curve that is why we have to be better trained and prepared than the other guy. Even if he is ahead of you in the curve that is no reason to consider yourself dead already. You are not dead until the good lord says you are. Yes you may get cut or shot but fight back anyway, shoot to slidelock and then either reload or beat him to the ground with your empty gun but don't count yourself out.

    Sutzu I guess I have come to the conclusion that you are not all bad in an ex army, yankee kinda way. (sarcasm)

    Lima, a pregnant woman, with a 2 y/o, car trouble in the heat........I am one of those good people who would help you, but would keep a wary eye on you. That is a scary combination.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    That is an extreme. I am talking about a person minding their own business and causing someone to get excited by a combination of innocent actions. Hoodie, not listening to a command to stop, "looking like a gangster". I am not talking about overtly doing something that is MEANT to provoke a response. Come on Lime, you know what I mean.
    Situation: I am wearing a hoodie at night walking down a street in a not so good neighborhood. I am looking down with headphones on. GG sees me approaching looking like I am on drugs from bobbing my head with the music, my hands are in my pocket. I do not hear is command to stop because of the music. Now, whose responsibility is it to not cause a misunderstanding? If the GG got nervous enough to display a firearm, even if it was just touching the butt of the weapon then I would have to think I am in trouble and jump the guy. Otherwise if the GG did nothing or caused seperation becasue they felt a threat then nothing would happen. That is what I meant.

    In Bold: It is not against the law to act like a fool. Your example is a bit different. There is a threat becasue it was voiced, not percieved. I am talking about percieved threats and what actions folks do.
    I hope you guys settle this pretty quick as I'm confusted and about to walk across town in a few. Since it is raining and a little cool today I plan on wearing my rain jacket with hoodie. I will probably encounter others out doing the same thing and if one of them should throw up his hand and command me to stop, should I just drop to my knees and beg forgiveness or just continue on as I do have a legal right to be where I am? Sure would hate to get shot while walking to the post office on a Sunday afternoon.
    suntzu, stancehold and tacman605 like this.
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    If someone is not acting threatening at all then there should be no reason for him to fear being unjustly drawn on. On the other hand, people should not be drawing their firearms on someone who is not showing any signs whatsoever of being a threat and I, personally, have not seen any posts indicating such.
    By the time it takes you to do all that......they would have been on you.....as soon as you percieve the threat....the gun goes into the hand.....no BG is going to report you to LE for Brandishing.....and they have already displayed a threatening posture.....by the little we're being told......10:45PM Dark Out and alone.....you bet I'm ordering them to halt.

    No threat.....answer question.......holster your weapon and be on you way.
    anyone approaches within 5 feet of my space gets a view of my gun. to hell with brandishing. Its code yellow immediately.
    I live close to the getto.
    That is just two on one thread. There are plenty others. Anyway, all I am saying is it seems to me I have been seeing a lot more of them that is all.

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array 357and40's Avatar
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    Brandishing is not ok. There are likely laws against brandishing in darn near every city in the US. If you draw be prepared to fire. I am not saying you MUST fire if you draw, but to brandish implies that you are drawing with no intent of firing. Do not draw with the intent of scaring the assumed assailant into backing down. Take it seriously. IF you are going to carry, don't half-ass it.
    21bubba likes this.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Lima I agree with your points however I feel murphy's law will kick in at some point and everyone has their own ideas about what bothers them.

    When I am home I ride Harleys. Up until last month I did not own a car just my Harley's so I ride no matter what the weather and so on. I have a shaved head, bushy mustache, tattoos and on occasion I wear shirts like James Yeager but anyways the point is I look like what I am, a biker. Since I ride all the time I sometimes wear a hoodie under my leather jacket. When I get off the bike I may have my beanie pulled down and hoodie up. This bothers people for whatever reason.

    I have no ill will towards anyone, leave me and mine alone and I will leave you alone, I do not have a racist bone in my body but due to appearences I am tagged as some redneck, skinhead, racist. Some people are intimidated by this I have had them crossover to the other side of the sidewalk or wait for me to walk by them before proceeding.
    If someone felt threatened by my appearance and made a furtive movement to draw or display a weapon what Suntzu described could probably happen.
    Now hopefully they would be smart enough or rational enough to give some kind of "warning" so to speak but as others have stated I don't have to listen to anything they say I can walk where I want when I want in a public parking lot however I am also smart enough that should I see one of these nervous nellies ready to draw their master blaster 500 yes I would comply and go around. It would be up to me to avert the potential problem as they have already made their mind up.

    My point being is this. What bothers some or puts their spidey senses on super high alert may not bother me at all. In fact when I am home I have to change my SA to a different type of awareness to deal with the hometown enviroment. I have been over here so long with the gunfire, rocket attacks, car bombs and rounds being fired in my direction does not bother me anymore. I have to actively seek out and look hard for what could be a threat to me in my home enviroment and have to lower my guard so to speak to identify and be ready for potential problems.
    ...
    Lima, a pregnant woman, with a 2 y/o, car trouble in the heat........I am one of those good people who would help you, but would keep a wary eye on you. That is a scary combination.
    We're kidding ourselves if we say we don't profile. We do... all of us. And, yeah, if someone fitting your description road up next to me I would take a second look, but then I would have to consider other points. Did you follow me from anywhere? Are you paying undue attention to me? Have you said or done anything that I could perceive as threatening? Are you trying to approach me? Yes, my gut might have said, "STRANGER! DANGER!" but then it's time for my brain to kick in and do some reasoning as to whether there is any actual danger.

    And, as you said, you're smart enough to know that if someone is overly nervous and starts commanding you to get away you are going to back down to as not start anything. I would do the same thing and, I suspect, most GGs would as well. GGs don't start fights. Even if they know they look a little scary, the accept that fact and get used to the nervous nillies who think they are big and bad and don't let it bother them.

    Now, if you didn't back down and got in someone's face and started saying, "What's your problem!?!" and getting all confrontational then, in my lay opinion, you would share some responsibility in whether or not the situation progressed to violence.

    It's hard to convey, through written word, on the internet, the level of nonverbal communication going on and what some might consider a threat.

    But I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that as a GG you are not going to escalate matters if someone perceives you as a bad guy. And, I should hope that a GG isn't going to go drawing a gun on someone who hasn't showed ANY signs of being a threat. Those things combined should = no problem for anyone.

    PS.. I'd happily accept your help!!

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I would help you out also Limatunes
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  14. #44
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    By the time it takes you to do all that......they would have been on you.....as soon as you percieve the threat....the gun goes into the hand.....no BG is going to report you to LE for Brandishing.....and they have already displayed a threatening posture.....by the little we're being told......10:45PM Dark Out and alone.....you bet I'm ordering them to halt.

    No threat.....answer question.......holster your weapon and be on you way.
    I guess I'm looking at the bolded text there... I'm assuming that the poster has (as they said) perceived a threat.. that's different than just drawing on someone for nothing.

    And as to the second one, well, good luck to them...lol.

    I certainly don't get to all of the threads but I don't see a lot of people advocating brandishing just because. Certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen, for sure, but I don't see a lot of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    That is just two on one thread. There are plenty others. Anyway, all I am saying is it seems to me I have been seeing a lot more of them that is all.
    This is a good thread, then. Brings the awareness to brandishing.. what it is and what it isn't. And, if you perceive a threat, is it really brandishing at all? Now THAT's a question for the scholars of the board..

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    This just might be me. But in the past couple of months it seems I am seeing more posts where folks say that they would display their firearm if they are approached by a stranger (usually at night or in a bad neighborhood). This is well before a weapon is displayed from the stranger or a direct sign of an attack.
    Also, we all no of the hoodie thing. But I see that cropping up a lot also in a multitude of threads. A lot of folks seem to be profiling too much.

    Maybe I am just reading the post more carefully lately. It is disconcerning that some feel it is OK to brandish a weapon as a pre-programmed response t certain triggers.

    Just my thoughts.
    Situational awareness is a process of ongoing profiling. The appropriateness of elevating it to the alert/alarm level is where it can become dicey.
    MleeC likes this.
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