"I don't care what the state says"

"I don't care what the state says"

This is a discussion on "I don't care what the state says" within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm in school with a young man who is about two years younger than me. Somehow we managed to get on the topic of batons ...

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Thread: "I don't care what the state says"

  1. #1
    Senior Moderator
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    "I don't care what the state says"

    I'm in school with a young man who is about two years younger than me. Somehow we managed to get on the topic of batons tonight and he asked our instructor (a former law enforcement officer) if batons were legal in our state.

    The instructor said they were not (they are with CCW permit) but that's not the issue. This young man said he had his CCW permit and that legal or not he's going to carry a baton.

    Out of curiosity I asked him why he felt he needed a baton.

    His response, "I want to have a less-than-lethal option."

    I asked him if he had any training with a baton. According to him he had training with and was issued a baton in the Navy that he was able to take with him when he left.... mmmm kkk.

    I said, "Then, if you've had training with a baton you should know that a baton can be lethal."

    "No, it's not lethal because you aren't going to kill anyone with a baton."

    I looked at him in astonishment. "Then you don't know batons. You most certainly CAN kill someone with a baton. Besides, it doesn't matter whether you kill an individual or not, according to the state of Iowa, lethal force is defined as death OR great body harm. That includes maiming someone such as breaking arms and such. So, even if you just break someone's arm, you are still using lethal force."

    "I don't see it that way," he says. "To me, lethal force is death."

    "I understand," I say, "And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you but it doesn't matter what you or I think, it matters what the state says."

    "I don't care what the state says."

    With that I decided this was a losing battle. But when I suggested that kind of thinking could get him in trouble and his permit revoked and lots of other legal trouble his response was a rather aggressively toned, "Let them just try to come and take it."

    Some states have pretty strict lethal force laws and include what weapons are valid under permits and what are not. They specify what is considered lethal force and under what circumstance you can claim self defense. Some states are pretty darned lenient and have very few restrictions but the restrictions and guidelines they spell out could mean the difference between a valid self defense claim and a murder charge. I know I'm preaching to the choir for the most part but why state law isn't more specifically emphasized in carry classes is kind of beyond me.

    No, in some cases it wouldn't matter. In this case it seems like this kid doesn't give a hoot about any way but his own way but maybe if someone he respected more were presenting the information (vs a 100 lbs woman who is his classmate) it might mean he actually takes it to heart.

    State law matters, folks. Even if you are like me and need to reread it or get a lecture on it every 3 months because I forget or get confused, it should be something on the mind and kept up to date on.


  2. #2
    Mal
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    If you're deploying a weapon, and I mean any weapon: pistol, shotgun, baton, and you use it to defend yourself...you can expect to be in a lot of hot water...even for a fully justified engagement, you're going to get locked up for a time, you're going to lose money defending yourself. Whether the weapon was permitted by the state or not will be the least of your worries.

    That being said...if you're deploying to defend yourself or family from great harm...and you succeed...it'll be worth the hassle.

    If this guy wants to carry a baton or a broad-sword, who cares. Keep it concealed and don't talk about it.
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    My point is that he's carrying a baton (a lethal weapon) for use in less-than-lethal situations. Now, yes... I understand that a baton, when used skillfully can be less-than-lethal. I understand it can be used for compliance, etc, but if you use if for a less-than-lethal situation and the state considers it to be lethal force you are inviting a lot more trouble than it's worth.

    You want a less-than-lethal option? Find out what your state considers lethal and non-lethal and go with the non-lethal option. Pepper spray is a good one. Don't just throw up your arms and say, "I don't care what the state says."

    Why dance on a thin line of legality when you don't have to?

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    Mal
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    You said it's legal to carry a baton with the CCW permit. You said he has the CCW permit. You said he claimed to have training in the use of a baton. I'm not sure what the issue here is. I don't see any "thin line of legality" it sounds like he's perfectly legal to me.

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    VIP Member Array Richard58's Avatar
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    Id hate to carry a baton to a gun fight....u might come in second place...
    The police are not there to protect you from crime, they are there to arrest the guy after the crime has been committed, assuming they find him. It is your responsibility to protect yourself and your family.

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    This post immediately brings to mind glockman10mm's sigline: Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

    Your classmate may have his reasons for not caring about local laws, but his unwillingness or inability to articulate them would make me put him in the lowest ranking of credibility.
    JD, bmcgilvray, wmhawth and 5 others like this.
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    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    You said it's legal to carry a baton with the CCW permit. You said he has the CCW permit. You said he claimed to have training in the use of a baton. I'm not sure what the issue here is. I don't see any "thin line of legality" it sounds like he's perfectly legal to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    My point is that he's carrying a baton (a lethal weapon) for use in less-than-lethal situations. Now, yes... I understand that a baton, when used skillfully can be less-than-lethal. I understand it can be used for compliance, etc, but if you use if for a less-than-lethal situation and the state considers it to be lethal force you are inviting a lot more trouble than it's worth.

    You want a less-than-lethal option? Find out what your state considers lethal and non-lethal and go with the non-lethal option. Pepper spray is a good one. Don't just throw up your arms and say, "I don't care what the state says."

    Why dance on a thin line of legality when you don't have to?
    If I may....


    The issue is beating someone with a stick when they probably don't need to be beaten with a stick. The issue isn't the possession of the baton, but the idea that using that baton does not equal deadly force.

    704.2 Deadly force.
    The term "deadly force" means any of the following:
    1. Force used for the purpose of causing serious injury.
    2. Force which the actor knows or reasonably should know will create a strong probability that serious injury will result.
    3. The discharge of a firearm, other than a firearm loaded with less lethal munitions and discharged by a peace officer, corrections officer, or corrections official in the line of duty, in the direction of some person with the knowledge of the person's presence there, even though no intent to inflict serious physical injury can be shown.
    4. The discharge of a firearm, other than a firearm loaded with less lethal munitions and discharged by a peace officer, corrections officer, or corrections official in the line of duty, at a vehicle in which a person is known to be.
    As used in this section, "less lethal munitions" means projectiles which are designed to stun, temporarily incapacitate, or cause temporary discomfort to a person without penetrating the person's body.
    [C79, 81, §704.2]
    97 Acts, ch 166, §1, 2
    Pending on where one is struck with a baton, items 1 & 2 in bold need to be considered.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes
    "No, it's not lethal because you aren't going to kill anyone with a baton."

    I looked at him in astonishment. "Then you don't know batons. You most certainly CAN kill someone with a baton. Besides, it doesn't matter whether you kill an individual or not, according to the state of Iowa, lethal force is defined as death OR great body harm. That includes maiming someone such as breaking arms and such. So, even if you just break someone's arm, you are still using lethal force."

    "I don't see it that way," he says. "To me, lethal force is death."

    "I understand," I say, "And I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you but it doesn't matter what you or I think, it matters what the state says."

    "I don't care what the state says."

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    Senior Moderator
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    ^^^ What he said.

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    Anyone who doesn't take the Law into account, whether justified or not, is foolishly courting trouble and will eventually find it.

    As an instructor I would say, based on his statements, that he is Not qualified to carry a baton, as he has shown a lack of understanding of the risks involved, not to mention a contempt for the law!
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    ^^^ What they said.

    His side of the conversation reveals an astonishing lack of maturity. A failure to bring clear-thinking maturity to either a class or a fight portends some dire consequences.

    At the very least life is going to be both unpleasant and difficult for the young man until he gets beyond the attitude and determines to grow up.
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    If the law in your state considers a baton as lethal force, why not use the more effective firearm? I think the same argument could be made that the firearm may not necessarily kill you. I think the number is something like 1 in 4 shot with a handgun actually die? If you're hit, it can maim or disfigure you just like a baton has the potential to do. I see no difference if the only argument is between "lethal" and "non-lethal".

  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    Like you said, it IS possible to kill if you don't know what your doing, a hit to the head/neck/spinal cord could easily kill, not to mention internal bleeding is also very possible regardless of where you hit. Also, like you said, OC spray is so much better... Let him find out for himself, some people need first hand experience before they learn because they already think they know everything.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

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    WhenI was in USAF Tech School(Security Police)we trained with riot batons,one of the students decided to show his wife what we learned in class that day with a broomstick,he unintentionally broke her arm,a broomstick isn't as hard or heavy as a rosewood baton.
    On a Civilian PD there was an altercation after a HS football game,a suspect resisted arrest and an LEO used his baton going for a clavicle break,the kid ducked into the swing and caught the strike to his head requiring an ambulance ride,there was a lawsuit that was settled out of court.
    IMHO I don't believe there is any such thing as "non lethal" that is why they are referred to as "less than lethal" people with certain conditions can go into respiratory arrest after being maced,people have died after being tasered.
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    Distinguished Member Array matthew03's Avatar
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    People who exhibit his type of demeanor and attitude I distance myself from quickly. He's looking for trouble and will likely find it in great supply.

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    I'm with "Dukalmighty" on this one. I use to carry a Taser C2 ECD, with my normal EDC. With all the laws that are ever changing, media and antigun lobbyist just looking for reasons to relieve us of our 2nd Amendment Rights
    I stopped carrying less than lethal.
    Hydra Shok is the only shock I use now.

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