Question about No Gun postings

Question about No Gun postings

This is a discussion on Question about No Gun postings within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Was talking to a friend last night (anti but a nice guy). He asked me if I go places that are posted no guns even ...

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  1. #1
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Question about No Gun postings

    Was talking to a friend last night (anti but a nice guy). He asked me if I go places that are posted no guns even if they do not have the power of law behind him. I said usually not. I try to respect the wishes of the owner. I said you are trespassing if you are asked to leave and don't. He said are you not already trespassing? They just don't know till they catch you. He used this example (of course he used me LOL):Somebody is walking on my property at night. My land is posted very well with no trespassing signs so nobody will accidently wander on the land. He said he is trespassing whether I see him or not. So in fact by going to a posted establishment you are already trespassing?

    Thoughts?


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    Senior Member Array Dadsnugun's Avatar
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    I agree with your friend. One may not be compelled to leave until asked but the trespass begins the moment one steps on the property.
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Was talking to a friend last night (anti but a nice guy). He asked me if I go places that are posted no guns even if they do not have the power of law behind him. I said usually not. I try to respect the wishes of the owner. I said you are trespassing if you are asked to leave and don't. He said are you not already trespassing? They just don't know till they catch you. He used this example (of course he used me LOL):Somebody is walking on my property at night. My land is posted very well with no trespassing signs so nobody will accidently wander on the land. He said he is trespassing whether I see him or not. So in fact by going to a posted establishment you are already trespassing?

    Thoughts?
    Where does it state that gun buster signs do not have the force of law in New Hampshire, or that one has to be asked to leave prior to being charged with criminal trespassing?
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    The question is whether or not you KNOW you are trespassing. If it is clearly posted, and you are aware of it, yet still enter, I would consider that trespassing. Some people play a game with their conscience. They do know that it is posted, but specifically do not look at it so they can say, "I didn't see the sign." Still others just don't care.

    If you want others to respect your RKBA, you should respect THEIR property rights. Do business elsewhere if you feel strongly about it, or you can try to educate the owner regarding the 2A. No matter how we feel about it, they have the Right to control their property in the manner they choose. Your Rights do not necessarily trump theirs.

    Some folks won't like to hear that. Oh well.
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    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Where does it state that gun buster signs do not have the force of law in New Hampshire, or that one has to be asked to leave prior to being charged with criminal trespassing?
    Why do people have to answer a question with a question. It could state Y. For your edification I know my states laws. This was the question:
    He asked me if I go places that are posted no guns even if they do not have the power of law behind him. I said usually not. I try to respect the wishes of the owner.
    He is not from NH and we were talking about gun laws in general. I spend about 4 months of the year out of NH.And I do not know the laws of every state though I look them up before I go. I do not break the law if that was what you were implying. Good grief.

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    Senior Member Array kerberos's Avatar
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    Yes, technically you would be trespassing because the owner of the property has given requirements for being on the property commonly accessed by the public.

    I guess it's kinda like a no shirt no shoes sign.

    Of course, playing dumb will probably work, but why risk it.

    The following can be found in it's entirety here... Tresspassing legal definition of Tresspassing. Tresspassing synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    "Every unlawful entry onto another's property is trespass, even if no harm is done to the property. A person who has a right to come onto the land may become a trespasser by committing wrongful acts after entry. For example, a mail carrier has a privilege to walk up the sidewalk at a private home but is not entitled to go through the front door. A person who enters property with permission but stays after he has been told to leave also commits a trespass. Moreover, an intruder cannot defend himself in a trespass action by showing that the plaintiff did not have a completely valid legal right to the property. The reason for all of these rules is that the action of trespass exists to prevent breaches of the peace by protecting the quiet possession of real property.

    In a trespass action, the plaintiff does not have to show that the defendant intended to trespass but only that she intended to do whatever caused the trespass. It is no excuse that the trespasser mistakenly believed that she was not doing wrong or that she did not understand the wrong. A child can be a trespasser, as can a person who thought that she was on her own land."
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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    I agree that the trespassing technically begins as soon as a person enters the posted business.
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    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    once its posted and you are not invited or fail to enter under the requirements then you can be charge

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    Don't know about anywhere else (and I rarely go anywhere else anyway), but in Oregon signs like that do not have the force of law behind them. And, you are not legally trespassing unless they physically ask you to leave and you refuse. If you comply after being asked, then no illegal trespass has occurred.
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    Quote Originally Posted by accessbob View Post
    Don't know about anywhere else (and I rarely go anywhere else anyway), but in Oregon signs like that do not have the force of law behind them. And, you are not legally trespassing unless they physically ask you to leave and you refuse. If you comply after being asked, then no illegal trespass has occurred.
    That isn't what it says here:

    164.265 Criminal trespass while in possession of firearm.
    (1) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm who, while in
    possession of a firearm, enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.
    (2) Criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [1979 c.603 §2]
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    Quote Originally Posted by accessbob View Post
    Don't know about anywhere else (and I rarely go anywhere else anyway), but in Oregon signs like that do not have the force of law behind them. And, you are not legally trespassing unless they physically ask you to leave and you refuse. If you comply after being asked, then no illegal trespass has occurred.
    This was always my understanding as well. I've asked my lawyer friends. Will let you know what they come back with.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    That isn't what it says here:

    164.265 Criminal trespass while in possession of firearm.
    (1) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm who, while in
    possession of a firearm, enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.
    (2) Criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [1979 c.603 §2]
    @ 1: signs having no legal bearing makes it so you're not entering or remaining unlawfully to said premesis and therefore isn't applicable.
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    In Tx it has to be a legal sign by definition in in statute 30.06,any other sign I'm thinking is geared toward people unlawfully carrying a concealed handgun
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRed7 View Post
    This was always my understanding as well. I've asked my lawyer friends. Will let you know what they come back with.


    @ 1: signs having no legal bearing makes it so you're not entering or remaining unlawfully to said premesis and therefore isn't applicable.
    I cited the statute, so how does the sign have no legal bearing?
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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRed7 View Post
    This was always my understanding as well. I've asked my lawyer friends. Will let you know what they come back with.


    @ 1: signs having no legal bearing makes it so you're not entering or remaining unlawfully to said premesis and therefore isn't applicable.
    In Mike1956's home state, OH, signs have the force of law. In my state of residence, PA, signs do not have the force of law.


    However, the point that suntzu was making, if I understand correctly, is: 1.) someone on my property without permission is trespassing (especially if my property is posted, "no trespassing"). 2.) When a business is posted (anti-gun), they do NOT want you there while armed. 3.) If you are there, armed, against their wishes, aren't you already trespassing (philosophically speaking, not legally)?
    Last edited by Badey; April 12th, 2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: punctuation
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    That isn't what it says here:

    164.265 Criminal trespass while in possession of firearm.
    (1) A person commits the crime of criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm who, while in
    possession of a firearm, enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.
    (2) Criminal trespass while in possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [1979 c.603 §2]
    The key words here are:

    enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.

    If you wish, you can read the Oregon Statutes again, which states (see my highlighted in red parts especially). Entering unlawfully does NOT include carrying when you have a concealed handgun license in the state of Oregon. Again I will state that it is not against the law to go where there are no guns posted signs except in federal buildings, courtrooms, jails, and post offices. If you are discovered and asked to leave, if you don't you will be guilty of criminal trespass. If you do leave, the police CANNOT arrest you.

    166.250 Unlawful possession of firearms. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470 or section 5, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly: (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
    (c) Possesses a firearm and:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age;
    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and
    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
    (C) Has been convicted of a felony;
    (D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130;
    (E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or
    (F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 of a felony.
    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor’s parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian; or
    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
    (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
    (b) If a vehicle, other than a vehicle described in paragraph (c) of this subsection, has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and
    (B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.
    (c) If a vehicle is a motorcycle, an all-terrain vehicle or a snowmobile, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is in a locked container within or affixed to the vehicle; or
    (B) The handgun is equipped with a trigger lock or other locking mechanism that prevents the discharge of the firearm.
    (5) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §4; 1985 c.543 §3; 1989 c.839 §13; 1993 c.732 §1; 1993 c.735 §12; 1999 c.1040 §1; 2001 c.666 §§33,45; 2003 c.614 §8; 2009 c.499 §1; 2009 c.595 §112; 2009 c.826 §8a; 2011 c.662 §1]

    Note: The amendments to 166.250 by section 11a, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, become operative January 2, 2016. See section 14, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, as amended by section 23, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, and section 2, chapter 448, Oregon Laws 2011. The text that is operative on and after January 2, 2016, including amendments by section 2, chapter 662, Oregon Laws 2011, is set forth for the user’s convenience.
    166.250. (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260, 166.270, 166.274, 166.291, 166.292 or 166.410 to 166.470, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:
    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
    (c) Possesses a firearm and:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age;
    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470; and
    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
    (C) Has been convicted of a felony;
    (D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130;
    (E) Was found to be mentally ill and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or
    (F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 of a felony.
    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minor’s parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minor’s parent or guardian; or
    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the person’s place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the person’s place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, “residence” includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
    (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
    (b) If a vehicle, other than a vehicle described in paragraph (c) of this subsection, has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and
    (B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.
    (c) If the vehicle is a motorcycle, an all-terrain vehicle or a snowmobile, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is in a locked container within or affixed to the vehicle; or
    (B) The handgun is equipped with a trigger lock or other locking mechanism that prevents the discharge of the firearm.
    (5) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor.

    166.260 Persons not affected by ORS 166.250. (1) ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect: (a) Sheriffs, constables, marshals, parole and probation officers, police officers, whether active or honorably retired, or other duly appointed peace officers.
    (b) Any person summoned by any such officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace, while said person so summoned is actually engaged in assisting the officer.
    (c) The possession or transportation by any merchant of unloaded firearms as merchandise.
    (d) Active or reserve members of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard or Marine Corps of the United States, or of the National Guard, when on duty.
    (e) Organizations which are by law authorized to purchase or receive weapons described in ORS 166.250 from the United States, or from this state.
    (f) Duly authorized military or civil organizations while parading, or the members thereof when going to and from the places of meeting of their organization.
    (g) A corrections officer while transporting or accompanying an individual convicted of or arrested for an offense and confined in a place of incarceration or detention while outside the confines of the place of incarceration or detention.
    (h) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 and 166.292 to carry a concealed handgun. (2) It is an affirmative defense to a charge of violating ORS 166.250 (1)(c)(C) that the person has been granted relief from the disability under ORS 166.274.
    (3) Except for persons who are otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm under ORS 166.250 (1)(c) or 166.270, ORS 166.250 does not apply to or affect:
    (a) Members of any club or organization, for the purpose of practicing shooting at targets upon the established target ranges, whether public or private, while such members are using any of the firearms referred to in ORS 166.250 upon such target ranges, or while going to and from such ranges.
    (b) Licensed hunters or fishermen while engaged in hunting or fishing, or while going to or returning from a hunting or fishing expedition.
    (4) The exceptions listed in subsection (1)(b) to (h) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating ORS 166.250. [Amended by 1977 c.207 §1; 1991 c.67 §36; 1993 c.735 §1; 1995 c.670 §2; 1999 c.1040 §3; 2009 c.316 §2; 2009 c.499 §4]

    166.262 Limitation on peace officer’s authority to arrest for violating ORS 166.250 or 166.370. A peace officer may not arrest or charge a person for violating ORS 166.250 (1)(a) or (b) or 166.370 (1) if the person has in the person’s immediate possession a valid license to carry a firearm as provided in ORS 166.291 and 166.292. [1999 c.1040 §5]
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