Would you have intervened? Shooting at Cracker Barrel.

Would you have intervened? Shooting at Cracker Barrel.

This is a discussion on Would you have intervened? Shooting at Cracker Barrel. within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There have been several heated discussions on here in reference to self protection vs. protecting the public. This is not a post to start a ...

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Thread: Would you have intervened? Shooting at Cracker Barrel.

  1. #1
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    Would you have intervened? Shooting at Cracker Barrel.

    There have been several heated discussions on here in reference to self protection vs. protecting the public. This is not a post to start a war about the subject everyone has their opinion and right to do what they want.

    In this case the suspect entered the restaurant shot and killed his wife and daughter and shot his other daughter. What would you do? Intervene or get yourself and family members out?

    Ohio Man Kills Wife, Daughter at Cracker Barrel - ABC News

    My answer is simple I would absolutely without a doubt would have engaged the suspect. Period.

    Mods I did not see this subject anywhere else if it is please move/delete as needed.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    First of all you never know what the intentions are once the gun is presented,may be he will shoot family,but he may try to kill everyone.If I sense that something bad is gonna happen I may either have my gun out underneath the menu,or moved to a place of concealment where I can engage the threat without getting anybody caught in a crossfire.
    It's very possible you can encounter something like this since sometimes people think that being in a public place is a safe place to break up with an abuser etc.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Reminds me of this post to our site by the venerable Gabe Suarez.
    I teach my students that they should seek “distance from disorder” in their lives, and unless something shocks the consciousness of humanity, to mind their own business. [A]n active shooter killing people in a restaurant …if you happen to be there, is in fact your business and your action can save many lives.

    [T]he bad guy has already opened the game.... [I]t is as clear as a slap in the face.

    ....A very old grizzled Surveillance Unit Sergeant once told me that a shooting was far easier to justify if the bad guy already shed blood or tried to kill somebody....
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    First of all you never know what the intentions are once the gun is presented,may be he will shoot family,but he may try to kill everyone.If I sense that something bad is gonna happen I may either have my gun out underneath the menu,or moved to a place of concealment where I can engage the threat without getting anybody caught in a crossfire. It's very possible you can encounter something like this since sometimes people think that being in a public place is a safe place to break up with an abuser etc.
    dukalmighty, Ed Lovette trains the covert draw using both tactics of draw and position at least to the point of clearing any obstruction from shooting on the move, i.e., pushing the chair slowly from the table with a view to kicking it back and to clear a path away from the table.

    Wow - two of the best instructors back to back. Is this site worth the price of admission or what?
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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    Considering whats going on in Florida I'm protecting me and mine and that's it.
    "There is a secret pride in every human heart that revolts at tyranny. You may order and drive an individual, but you cannot make him respect you." William Hazlitt (1778 - 1830)

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    This question needs more clarification. The Cracker Barrels I've been in are large places, and usually crowded. If the shooter was right in front of me and I had a good backstop, I'd be inclined to intervene and claim self defense.

    The degree to which I would be less inclined to engage increases proportionate to my distance from the threat and number of people both between me and beyond the shooter. It depends on how he's moving, what he's saying, the firearm he's using, etc. All of these things factor into whether you have a good chance of stopping him without injuring others or dying in the attempt.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    Sorry to those that say they would not shoot the suspect, or would wait and see, or would let them get closer to see their intent, but if a guy walks in with a rifle or pistol drawn in a place I am eating and starts shooting (or even if not in many cases where they appear to be "hunting" humans), I am drawing immediately and more than likely popping and dropping them as fast as possible from ambush (only exception would be if the guy clearly announced or shouted out that there is an armed person outside trying to get in and I take the chance it is another concealed carry doing THEIR part to protect everyone).

    If that that sounds callous, build a bridge and get over it.

    Reason being is that when a shooter bent on killing enters a crowded building, they are going to be overloaded with input and cannot possibly keep up with everything that will be happening at once. If they are bent on just killing certain persons, they will have to be looking for them, most likely where they either last saw them or think them to be. If they are bent on killing as many people as possible, they MUST fixate on targets long enough to take the shot. Those are the ideal times to draw and shoot from cover if possible.

    And there is no "Fair Play" here. If I have a shot from behind them, they are getting it in the back, side, from underneath or overhead. Nothing says I have to allow a Bad Guy any rules of honor. They threw that out the second they decided to kill innocents.

    No, I do not want to injure innocents, but if I hold my fire when I have the shot because someone innocent may be injured by over-penetration or a stray round of mine, that is something I am willing to chance. If I do not fire, they may all die, especially if the guy sees me and takes me out.

    As to waiting to see what their intent may be, no sane human (or one that should pass muster in Darwinian Evolution) is going to walk into a business establishment other than a shooting range with a rifle or drawn pistol, and believe me, like being able to tell the difference between a tame house pet and a feral animal, if a person is only half awake, they will be able to tell immediately what is on when they first see the Bad Guy entering the place with the weapon.

    I will also take the heat from the media and antis for firing multiple rounds until they drop and are completely neutralized, because there have been plenty of instances and verified reports where Bad Guys were supposedly or actually mortally wounded, and yet jumped back up and continued their aggressions. Remember that THEIR adrenaline will keep their bodies going long after they may have a hole through their heart, and no matter what caliber, handguns are notoriously poor weapons to take into a gunfight against a rifle or shotgun.

    Just a thing I have taught friends and family that I picked up long ago from a good instructor - If at all possible, when you enter buildings, it only takes a few seconds to mentally check exits, fields of fire and tactics. Makes for an interesting silent mind game and no need to tell those you are with. Just be awake and alert to your surroundings, not feet moving, brain out of order.
    Fortune Favors the Bold!

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    Member Array SATCHMO1960's Avatar
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    Totally agree with lordofwyr......I would not hesitate to drop this guy.

    ”The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.”
    ~Wayne LaPierre
    "Be not ye afraid of them: remember the LORD, which is great and terrible, and fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses." Nehemiah 4:14

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    Member Array JaySkiBum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    This question needs more clarification. The Cracker Barrels I've been in are large places, and usually crowded. If the shooter was right in front of me and I had a good backstop, I'd be inclined to intervene and claim self defense.

    The degree to which I would be less inclined to engage increases proportionate to my distance from the threat and number of people both between me and beyond the shooter. It depends on how he's moving, what he's saying, the firearm he's using, etc. All of these things factor into whether you have a good chance of stopping him without injuring others or dying in the attempt.
    The Cracker Barrels, at least the newer ones, are all cookie cutter buildings and almost identical...and like you said, it would depend on where I am if I were to make any attempt to stop a gunman, or at least make a move so I could.

    Isn't Cracker Barrel against concealed carry in their place?

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    Yes the buildings are all cookie cutter type as stated. The question is general I know, heck you could be in the bathroom and could avoid the whole thing. I would imagine the sound of a shotgun blast would get your attention though.

    For the sake of argument you are seated in the next row over from the family with one of the fake walls with decorations in between you and them. This man was apparently targeting his own family and no one else so you could in theory simply duck under the table and avoid the whole thing. It comes down to a relatively simple answer to the question.

    Would you intervine or not?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Distinguished Member Array hardluk1's Avatar
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    The truth be told no one nows for sure how they would react unless they were there. All the chest thumping by some is all BS at this point. To many people typicaly crowded into a a small an area and then haveing some defencive CC person is going take charge and get the BG ,, you could end up getting others killed and then it would be on you.

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    If I'm near an exit, and can get out, I'm ushering my family out and not engaging unless I have to.

    If we're cornered and have no exit, then I'd have to engage.
    ironmike86 likes this.

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    Member Array rmxer85's Avatar
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    If I had enough info to go on and opportunity, then yes.
    Drop the SOB
    He is actively killing people. What is to stop him from eventually getting around to you?
    I thoroughly disapprove of duels.
    If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand
    and lead him to a quiet place and kill him.
    -Mark Twain

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    Quote Originally Posted by hardluk1 View Post
    The truth be told no one nows for sure how they would react unless they were there. All the chest thumping by some is all BS at this point. To many people typicaly crowded into a a small an area and then haveing some defencive CC person is going take charge and get the BG ,, you could end up getting others killed and then it would be on you.
    Truth be told, no one responding to an on-line post knows the level of training, expertise and attitude possessed by ostensible internet chest thumpers.
    Bubbiesdad, SWIll and turboer like this.
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    IF (a big one) I had an exit, I'm out of there...or at least out of line of a shotgun blast.
    IF...I was right there when this guy fired off a round and then realigned his weapon at the child, I believe that that would be enough for me to try and stop that threat.
    It would have to be in such a way that the opportunity would not endanger the others in the restaurant. That's a tough one, but who knows if this guy intends to go out in a blaze of glory by shooting everyone he can?
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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