Consent to search or not?

This is a discussion on Consent to search or not? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; can they arrest you for not allowing a search? i would think no, but after reading through this topic it seemed like some people were ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array LongJohn6284's Avatar
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    can they arrest you for not allowing a search?

    i would think no, but after reading through this topic it seemed like some people were saying that when they did not consent they were taken into custody

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by REVMAN View Post
    I have noticed on several post that say "don't consent to a search if asked". I can see kinda what they are saying but really doesn't that just make the leo more suspicious and could very well cause a huge delay in your trip while getting authority to do the search? It just seems to me that being up front with any question asked by the leo would be the best way to go.....that's just my thought and I may be completely off.
    Never ever ever ever EVER! Have nothing to hide huh...? Ever given a friend a ride in the same car? What about relatives? Coworkers? Ever had the vehicle broken into?

    Can you be absolutely 100% bet your life on it sure that neither one left anything "incriminating" behind whether on purpose or by mistake(ie fell out of a pocket and got wedge in the seat cushion)?
    Can you be absolutely certain you didn't just get picked by the ONE bad apple in that department that decides to take out his frustrations of his wife leaving him, taking the dog with her, and being passed up for promotion in the same week?

    NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER consent to search.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongJohn6284 View Post
    can they arrest you for not allowing a search?

    i would think no, but after reading through this topic it seemed like some people were saying that when they did not consent they were taken into custody
    Here is a good link that explains things.

    STOP, DETAIN, SEARCH - What CAN an Officer Do Legally (IANAL)
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

  5. #49
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    Badey I can see how it could have ended badly, I guess, for the wife but didn't. The husband stated that he was at fault for leaving the weapon in the vehicle. I am guessing that in that state CCW licenses are linked in to the cars registration. The officer apparently showed good judgement and all ended well.

    My wife borrowed my car and went shopping.
    We live in Ohio but West Virginia is just across the river.
    A WVa. city police car was in front of her and he pulled into a parking lot just at the end of town. My wife and another car behind her started to speed up as they were about to leave the 35 mph town and were within view of a 55 mph sign.
    The city police came out with lights flashing and pulled my wife over, as soon as he walked up to the car he asked if she had a CC, she said my husband does but he usually takes it out when I have the care.
    Well this time I didn't, I was at fault it was in a locked glove compartment with the mag in and without a round chambered.
    He asked her to give him the CC, the registration, and her license. When she opened the glove compartment and saw the CC she handed it to him with her license. She was shook up and couldn't find the registration which I keep in the center console so if she has the car she doesn't have to open the glove compartment.
    He took her license and my CC back to his car when he returned he handed her my CC and her license with just a warning ticket.
    All in all it went well, since he had an out of State vehicle with a loaded weapon without a CC License Holder.
    If she would have went to jail, she would have killed me and I couldn't blame her.

    Just something to think about guys if you can't talk your wife into getting a CC.


    In answer to the other question, No the officer cannot arrest you for refusing to give consent, he legally cannot take any action against you whatsoever. In these situations he has to abide by the law and whatever prescident he has set, an example. An officer working radar on the highway stops 100 cars. He asks all drivers for consent and it is given.
    Out of those stopped 10 are from out of state. For those he follows policy and they are required to post a cash bond to make sure they show up on court, for the other 90 which are local he issues a citation to appear in court and the driver is on his way.

    On car 101 the driver is a pain but he is local, but instead of giving consent the driver refuses, the officer now requires him to post a cash bond instead of just giving him the citation to appear. In court the man could and should maintain that he was treated differently and selected for further punishment by the officer.

    I hope that did not just sound like a big math problem and it answered your question.

    Many have quoted the 4th amendment on different posts but I encourage you to look up the laws and decisions regarding search and seizure and especially those involving vehicles and the search warrant exceptions. It not only is good reading but you will see that there is a lot of things that could help you in the long run.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  6. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    People do stupid things guys it happens everyday. If you don't want to consent, don't. If you loan your vehicle out to someone you don't know and trust, take it to a garage where the mechanic may leave something in there or you are worried that your girlfriend left drugs in the car you have bigger problems in life than this and really need to adjust your tinfoil hat.
    Know and trust has nothing to do with it. Stuff happens. My wife lent her car to an LEO. About ten months later
    I was driving my wife's car, something I normally don't do, and found a weapon at the bottom of the center console. Duh.
    Had she been stopped and given consent there might have been more than a little problem, don't yah think.
    At least it wasn't a handgun, but a weapon nonetheless.

    Or, how about I am driving my wife's car, again something I rarely do, and I find her controlled substance prescription meds scattered under the seat. The car is registered in my name, not hers, and the meds are not mine. Joy.

    See, Tacman, it isn't as simple as you make it sound.

    Bad stuff can happen when your car is searched even if the LEO is honest, straight as an arrow, and a man of full integrity.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  7. #51
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    Badey, yes those are good links in relation to detaining and searching but there are specific exceptions for vehicles, some from PA.

    Motor vehicle exception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Search Warrant Exceptions

    Guys also please understand this is also not some battle to be won on the side of the road. Getting into a legal argument with the officer will not solve anything at that moment. This strictly gives you some idea about the specific laws governing searches of a vehicle.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #52
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    Hopyard you are correct nothing is as simple as it sounds.

    A "Weapon" in your console for 10 months without you knowing about it if discovered on a search, for whatever reason, yeah would probably cause problems for whomever is driving and also for the LEO who did not realize his "Weapon" was missing for ten months. A controlled med not in a labeled bottle is a crime and scattered under the seat if I was the officer I would want to know why they are there.

    I see your point anything can happen to anyone I guess.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #53
    Member Array mcgyver210's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongJohn6284 View Post
    can they arrest you for not allowing a search?

    i would think no, but after reading through this topic it seemed like some people were saying that when they did not consent they were taken into custody
    A Leo can do pretty much anything they want on the side of the road if it is your word against his. Your only chance is if there is a witness or recording of the encounter that proves they were wrong. LEOs also know even when they are found in the wrong not much usually happens to them if anything. I mean seriously they used to have a little accountability but now they can & do say they thought they saw something. It isn't fair but it is the way it works.

    As for searches I had an older Mustang many years ago which I had cleaned many times but one day I was cleaning & ran across a hidden compartment with a bag of pills I had never seen before. So I showed them to my mother who had worked as a Pharmacy Assistant at one time in a hospital. She said what they were not something I would want to be caught with & to give them to a LEO Friend, he said if I had been caught with those it would have been bad. He disposed of them for me & had a K9 search my car for anymore to protect me. No more were found luckily.

    Now I am & have always been very straight in that I Don't Drink, Smoke or take drugs even to the extent I am a very bad patient because I don't like prescriptions either & have been yelled at for not filling a script much less taking it. Now as a teenager I had planned on being in Law Enforcement but decided after getting thru testing it wasn't for me. Never the less I could have gotten in very big trouble if a LEO had found the pills.

    Now I have also never been asked for any type of search in my life.

    LEOs today are not the same as LEOs of the past though.

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Badey, yes those are good links in relation to detaining and searching but there are specific exceptions for vehicles, some from PA.

    Motor vehicle exception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Search Warrant Exceptions

    Guys also please understand this is also not some battle to be won on the side of the road. Getting into a legal argument with the officer will not solve anything at that moment. This strictly gives you some idea about the specific laws governing searches of a vehicle.
    To be sure I understand, it looks like the police officer doesn't have to ask permission to search and doesn't need a warrant IF they have probable cause. If they ask to search, then they don't have probable cause and you can say no. Is this correct?
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

  11. #55
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    A Leo can do pretty much anything they want on the side of the road if it is your word against his. Your only chance is if there is a witness or recording of the encounter that proves they were wrong. LEOs also know even when they are found in the wrong not much usually happens to them if anything. I mean seriously they used to have a little accountability but now they can & do say they thought they saw something. It isn't fair but it is the way it works.

    Wow really? To each his own I guess.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    A controlled med not in a labeled bottle is a crime and scattered under the seat if I was the officer I would want to know why they are there.
    This is something that many people are not aware of. Those little containers made to carry your daily dose of medications may put you on the wrong side of the Law if found.

    Michael

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array Chesafreak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcgyver210 View Post
    A Leo can do pretty much anything they want on the side of the road if it is your word against his. Your only chance is if there is a witness or recording of the encounter that proves they were wrong. LEOs also know even when they are found in the wrong not much usually happens to them if anything. I mean seriously they used to have a little accountability but now they can & do say they thought they saw something. It isn't fair but it is the way it works.

    As for searches I had an older Mustang many years ago which I had cleaned many times but one day I was cleaning & ran across a hidden compartment with a bag of pills I had never seen before. So I showed them to my mother who had worked as a Pharmacy Assistant at one time in a hospital. She said what they were not something I would want to be caught with & to give them to a LEO Friend, he said if I had been caught with those it would have been bad. He disposed of them for me & had a K9 search my car for anymore to protect me. No more were found luckily.

    Now I am & have always been very straight in that I Don't Drink, Smoke or take drugs even to the extent I am a very bad patient because I don't like prescriptions either & have been yelled at for not filling a script much less taking it. Now as a teenager I had planned on being in Law Enforcement but decided after getting thru testing it wasn't for me. Never the less I could have gotten in very big trouble if a LEO had found the pills.

    Now I have also never been asked for any type of search in my life.

    LEOs today are not the same as LEOs of the past though.
    I don't believe that. Just like forums make everyone think that a problem with a certain model firearm is widespread when all you are seeing is the few negative reports and not the good ones, most of what you see on the internet concerning bad LEO's is the same. You don't see the countless LEO's doing their job correctly with good ethics on the internet, only the bad ones. Your generalization of LEO's isn't any different than when liberals generalize gun owners and concealed carry, and that sucks.
    Moops likes this.
    "I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery." - Thomas Jefferson

  14. #58
    Member Array Stirling XD's Avatar
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    Years ago I saw a news story about cops that would stop families on their way to Disney World. They would give them a ticket or warning for speeding and ask to search their vehicle. They weren't breaking any laws so they would consent. The LEO would go through bags and luggage and find the families vacation cash. The LEO would say to them, "I believe you are going to use this cash for the purpose of buying illegal drugs so I am confiscating it. Enjoy the rest of your vacation. You're free to go." And getting that money back was nearly impossible.

    Carrying a large amount of cash on vacation is not a crime. Stashing it in a sock in your suitcase is not a crime. But that didn't stop the LE from taking peoples' money.

  15. #59
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    Chesafreak that is correct. If the officer has probable cause he can search without a warrant under the vehicle exception.

    As far as the next part it can be a slippery slope, even though he asks you he may already have seen something that has given him PC but is asking for consent because that can take the burden off him. Nothing illegal or immoral about it he is simply asking for your consent.

    mlr1m you are correct there have been cases where the weekly containers for meds have caused issues, namely when someone puts 6 oxycontins in each little box but has no script to back it up not when grandma has her meds in her purse. The officer would look at the totality of the circumstance and would use some common sense hopefully to sort it all out.

    Stirling I must have missed the story but normally it would have to be quite a large amount of currency, in excess of $10,000, or some really fishy circumstances on the part of the traveler in order for them to be able to take the cash but anything is possible.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chesafreak View Post
    I don't believe that. Just like forums make everyone think that a problem with a certain model firearm is widespread when all you are seeing is the few negative reports and not the good ones, most of what you see on the internet concerning bad LEO's is the same. You don't see the countless LEO's doing their job correctly with good ethics on the internet, only the bad ones. Your generalization of LEO's isn't any different than when liberals generalize gun owners and concealed carry, and that sucks.
    Amen to that! I respect LEOs and what they do to create a safe environment for us. The majority of them do a great job, but, just like with everything else, there are a few bad apples.
    Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men -St. Augustine

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