(Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE - Page 2

(Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE

This is a discussion on (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; There is a personal choice to be made here. Shoot or not to shoot. Either way is fine. For me, I would have gotten behind ...

View Poll Results: WOULD YOU HAVE SHOT?

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  • YES

    39 56.52%
  • NO

    14 20.29%
  • NOT SURE

    16 23.19%
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Thread: (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    There is a personal choice to be made here. Shoot or not to shoot. Either way is fine. For me, I would have gotten behind the counter to the right, give a verbal, if BG decided to run good, if he decided to engage bad for him.

    No one has mentioned it yet, in your state can you defend a third party. Remember to know your laws.....
    sid1 and tacman605 like this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......


  2. #17
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    The video has been on here before in the past.

    Keep in mind that this is not the USA, it is somewhere in S America I believe.

    I would to say shoot but as you can see there is a bystander in the shooting lane and if/or the bullet misses you can hit an unintended target.
    here is one of my favorate videos that might help shead some light on what you are looking for

    Bark'n likes this.

  3. #18
    Member Array erick619's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    What is a 21-foot rule?
    The Police Policy Studies Council
    I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.

    (J.R.R.Tolkien [Faramir], The Two Towers

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array sid1's Avatar
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    Based on the video alone, It doesnt look he even has had a gun? To me he looked like he put something on the counter, walked away and then turned around. At this point it still doesnt look to be a threat ( I still see no gun) his hands arent waving around and hes not pointing anything.
    He looks upset maybe, but still no threat.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by erick619 View Post
    So how is that relevant to the events of this video, or much else?
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
    William T. Sherman

  6. #21
    Distinguished Member Array sid1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sid1 View Post
    Based on the video alone, It doesnt look he even has had a gun? To me he looked like he put something on the counter, walked away and then turned around. At this point it still doesnt look to be a threat ( I still see no gun) his hands arent waving around and hes not pointing anything.
    He looks upset maybe, but still no threat.
    Oh sorry where are my manners! Welcome to the forum

  7. #22
    Member Array BlackJack's Avatar
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    First, let me say that in this scenario, the individual was an off duty LEO based on your description. That changes it from any scenario that I could ever be in. The fact that he is a LEO means that he is not just another concealed carrier, even off duty. Depending on his department rules and regulations he will be held to different standards and requirements than the average concealed carrier.

    Second, would I shoot? Good question. Since there was no audio, at least not for me, I do not know how immediate the threat was. If I thought he was actually going to shoot, then yes I would probably take a shot. If I thought that he was going to rob the place and leave without hurting anybody, then no, I would not. How do you know the difference? Another good question and it is a judgment call that you can only make “in the heat of the moment”. Could you be making a mistake? Yup, you could be making a mistake regardless of what you decide.

    OK, so why do I even carry if I do not know whether or not I would shoot? Well, I carry as a last resort to protect myself, my family and if necessary others. Since I am not LEO, shooting is a last resort for me that I will use only if I feel that I have no other options. Would I shoot if I thought that I had no other options? YES, in a heartbeat! But, and this is a big but for me, I am not a LEO and do not hold myself to the same requirements that I would expect from a LEO.

    My priorities are, and this is what I tell all my students a well, 1. The safety of my family, 2. My safety, 3. The safety of others once I know the situation.

    With all of that being said, great video, thanks for posting it.

  8. #23
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    MrColionNoir welcome aboard. A very thought provoking first post. A relevant discussion and good video scenario.

    In this situation, I think I would have done just as the off duty officer did, and shoot him without issuing a challenge for the following reasons.

    First of all, would be my close proximity to the man with the gun. When the gunman first approached the counter, I would have literally been an arms reach away from him. There is no real immediate cover to go to. As the off duty officer took a couple steps back to increase the distance, he was still essentially caught out in the open.

    Second, the gunman seemed to be adrenalin charged, (as would be expected). He had chaotic and sporadic movements and in that state, he is highly unpredictable.

    Lastly, he was armed with a gun. It only takes fractions of a second to aim and fire. In my opinion the totality of the circumstances warranted an immediate response without warning.

    Had the robber held a knife instead of a gun, or had no visible weapon (empty hands), and been farther away from me, I would have possibly issued a verbal challenge first, as I was drawing my gun, and moving backwards to increase the distance.

    Things happen fast during armed robberies. I have pretty much outlined a course of action to use as a playbook if I am ever caught in a situation like that. I have developed certain markers I use which helps me determine what my immediate response is going to be, and then train on that. It's not set in stone. I have the ability to change things as the situation develops, but having a mental playbook to go on, allows me that opportunity.

    In this case, my markers were the fact that he had a gun in his hand; my close proximity to him; no immediate cover; and the bad guys demeanor and jittery actions indicated to me, to respond just as the off duty officer did.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  9. #24
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    qoute from bark'n
    Had the robber held a knife instead of a gun, or had no visible weapon
    Why is this? Do you feel a knife at close quarters is less of a weapon? History has shown us that a man with a knife is just as deadly

    kmagnuss likes this.

  10. #25
    Member Array kmagnuss's Avatar
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    Action is faster than reaction. Specifically... do you really think you can fire off a good shot in the time it takes another man to raise his gun and fire? Do you want to bet your life on it?

    And for those that think a knife is less of a weapon at close quarters... I hope you never have to find out.

  11. #26
    New Member Array toytruckman's Avatar
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    Welcome.....But he's LEO.......It's different..........Remember UR never "off duty"

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    qoute from bark'n

    Why is this? Do you feel a knife at close quarters is less of a weapon? History has shown us that a man with a knife is just as deadly
    You really think I don't know how dangerous a knife is? A man with a knife has to make contact with you before he cuts you (excluding knife throwing experts, which I've only seen done in exhibitions & Hollywood). If I'm at 5-10 feet away and I already have him at gunpoint, I can certainly beat his lunge.

    I also never said, I wouldn't have shot him, if he had a knife. I said, I would likely have issued a challenge while holding him at gunpoint. I also wouldn't be standing there picking my nose when issuing a challenge. I'd have my gun pointed center mass, my finger would be on the trigger and he would have no doubt of my resolve if he even twitched incorrectly.

    I know all about the Tueller drill. I've performed it many times. Also, the Tueller drill is not a rule saying you have to shoot someone who has a knife who is within 21 feet. What it is designed to instill, is that if you are dealing with a subject armed with a knife or club, you shouldn't be dealing with him with your gun still holstered. You should immediately draw and start maneuvering away from the armed subject.

    Bottom line, as stated before, if the dude has a gun, he's getting shot without a warning. If he doesn't have a gun, I may issue a challenge before shooting. Again, it really depends on the totality of circumstances. It's going to be a very dynamic situation. Nothing I do is going to be set in stone.

    The video you posted is a totally different kind of scenario. Not the same as a man robbing a convenience store with a visible knife in hand. That presents a totally different set of dynamics.
    oneshot likes this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #28
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    I would have shot. The threat is seen, shoot to stop the threat. This is what I have been taught in class and hope this is how I would respond. No need for this to turn into an active shooter scenero. I would not have issued any commands, not required by "my state" laws.

    Welcome to the forum, great video!

  14. #29
    Member Array Walden's Avatar
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    Love your videos. I've been watching them on YouTube now for a while. Welcome to the forum.

    In this situation, there may have been an opportunity to disarm the gunman. The cop didn't have to come right out and shoot. At least, that's how it looks on the video. But if I believed that the clerk, other customer, or myself was in imminent danger, then I would take the shot.
    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." - St. Augustine

  15. #30
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    First off, welcome to the forum.

    Having seen the video before, I know this happens in a South American country, so the constraints a LEO operates under is completely different than in the US. Also the possession and carrying of civilians in those countries, for the most part, are much more restricted as well.

    The video does not really show if the BG is armed, the way he entered the store, tossed the bag on the counter and stepped back, you would assumed he is armed, or at least made the threat of being armed. Unless I felt there was a viable threat posed by the BG, I will not draw my weapon. If I do feel there is a viable threat and draw, I will give no warning, or commands. Once I've cleared my holster and have a shot I'm taking it.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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