(Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE

This is a discussion on (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Bark'n MrColionNoir welcome aboard. A very thought provoking first post. A relevant discussion and good video scenario. In this situation, I think ...

View Poll Results: WOULD YOU HAVE SHOT?

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  • YES

    39 56.52%
  • NO

    14 20.29%
  • NOT SURE

    16 23.19%
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Thread: (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    MrColionNoir welcome aboard. A very thought provoking first post. A relevant discussion and good video scenario.

    In this situation, I think I would have done just as the off duty officer did, and shoot him without issuing a challenge for the following reasons.

    First of all, would be my close proximity to the man with the gun. When the gunman first approached the counter, I would have literally been an arms reach away from him. There is no real immediate cover to go to. As the off duty officer took a couple steps back to increase the distance, he was still essentially caught out in the open.

    Second, the gunman seemed to be adrenalin charged, (as would be expected). He had chaotic and sporadic movements and in that state, he is highly unpredictable.

    Lastly, he was armed with a gun. It only takes fractions of a second to aim and fire. In my opinion the totality of the circumstances warranted an immediate response without warning.

    Had the robber held a knife instead of a gun, or had no visible weapon (empty hands), and been farther away from me, I would have possibly issued a verbal challenge first, as I was drawing my gun, and moving backwards to increase the distance.

    Things happen fast during armed robberies. I have pretty much outlined a course of action to use as a playbook if I am ever caught in a situation like that. I have developed certain markers I use which helps me determine what my immediate response is going to be, and then train on that. It's not set in stone. I have the ability to change things as the situation develops, but having a mental playbook to go on, allows me that opportunity.

    In this case, my markers were the fact that he had a gun in his hand; my close proximity to him; no immediate cover; and the bad guys demeanor and jittery actions indicated to me, to respond just as the off duty officer did.
    Welcome from South Carolina...

    Bark'n kinda sums it up for me. The OP said, in a roundabout way, let's pretend this was a concealed carrier (YOU) and asked what would you do. He stated it was a LEO, stated it was not in the USA etc etc...That's NOT what he asked or presented his poll on... It was "What would YOU, as a concealed carrier, have done if you were the one in that particular situation"

    As soon as the BG presented his weapon (and you CAN see that it's a weapon), I would have reacted the same way as the "pretend concealed carry person" in the video. The weapon presented IS an IMMEDIATE threat on MY life. I'm not even considering the other person, the clerk or anyone else. It is threatening to MY life! Who am I to say, that as he exhibited his nervous turn and immediately turned back toward the counter, that he wouldn't have IMMEDIATELY shot me because I was a witness to his crime. As soon as he made his nervous turn, just as the gentleman did in the video, that would have been MY opening to draw and fire. I'm NOT issuing a challenge, I'm NOT asking if he's sure that he wants to do the crime, I'm NOT moving to cover and observing and waiting for him to point his weapon at me.....I AM TAKING THE OPENING, DRAWING, AND STOPPING THE IMMEDIATE THREAT TO ME! JMO
    oneshot likes this.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

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  3. #32
    Member Array Moops's Avatar
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    Based on what I saw, I would have taken the shot. A man five feet from me, with a gun, robbing a store, is a threat to my life. I'm pretty sure I would have been covered under the laws of my state, and if charged, any defense attorney worth his salt could have the charges dropped.

    Well, maybe not these days, if the BG was black.
    Doodle likes this.
    "Your mind is the weapon, all the rest are just tools." --gasmitty

  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array OhioCatter's Avatar
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    5 feet away, gun in hand, and if he doesn't get his way this could become a real mess. I never want to find out if I would or wouldn't, but if it was me or him i'm definetly going home to my family at the end of the day.

  5. #34
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    I'm in the "he's getting laid out on the floor" camp.
    Dudes got a pistol, theres nowhere for me to go, soon as I try to make for cover or bolt for the door, he's gonna tap me, so, its him or us, and it ain't going to be the law abiders on this day.
    I'm a lefty as well, so this is gonna be a toughie, but I'm going to prevail.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  6. #35
    New Member Array MrColionNoir's Avatar
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    Thank You!

  7. #36
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    Presentation of the weapon meets the reasonable person standard for assuming one is in immediate danger of grave bodily harm or death. The felon could employ a candy bar in his jacket pocket implying he had a firearm and the reasonable person standard is still satisfied. That the felon may or may not have made verbal threats indicating malicious intent makes no difference. His actions spoke well to his intent.

    The felon had the ability to maim or kill, he had the opportunity, and a reasonable person would believe their life is in jeopardy.

    Good shoot. I don't intend to provide verbal warnings in close proximity to an armed felon demonstrating an intent to harm or kill.

    I hope I react as swiftly and with virtuous intent should I find myself in such a horrific situation.
    oneshot likes this.

  8. #37
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    First thing... Welcome and good choice for a first post. I would be interested in seeing more of these. As for me I am firmly in the shoot crowd. He's got a gun, breaking the law and CLOSE. Issuing a command gives up your only advantage here... Surprise.

  9. #38
    Member Array aworldexport's Avatar
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    Isn't a man with a gun coming in and demanding money an imminent threat to everyone in the store? The very fact he is armed and threatening lethal actions either verbal or by waving a weapon means he is a threat...i dont understand this "if he becomes a threat" kind of thinking..what more of a threat do i need to percieve a threat to life and limb? I'm not giving up one ounce of advantage i may have. I have seen videos where the BG's got everyone to lay on the ground and then they went and shot them one by one.Sorry but no yelling "freeze! drop it! hey you!" their only signal their plan has gone wrong will be a round being fired at their chest.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    One thing that may have helped in the way I respond is in what was verbally said,without sound we are left guessing,the way I see it the BG made a bad tactical move and by his nonchalant manner this was probably not his first Rodeo,There have been numerous cases where a hesitation to fire has cost them their lives,that LEO was making sure he went home to his family
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array RubenZ's Avatar
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    The bad thing about this is the Stores VIDEO camera's will be used in COURT if by you chance you go, depending on states etc. And watching the VIDEO it looks like deadly force was not needed. Now you may see it as needed since you were there, but the JURY may not. Thats what scares me. In my mind I would shoot to rid the earth of a scumbag, but at the same time the legal issues may affect my family and I in the long term.
    Glock 20sf, Glock 19 gen4, Glock 26 gen3, Colt 1911 Series 80

  12. #41
    Member Array ducatirider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RubenZ View Post
    The bad thing about this is the Stores VIDEO camera's will be used in COURT if by you chance you go, depending on states etc. And watching the VIDEO it looks like deadly force was not needed. Now you may see it as needed since you were there, but the JURY may not. Thats what scares me. In my mind I would shoot to rid the earth of a scumbag, but at the same time the legal issues may affect my family and I in the long term.
    That's where my hesitation comes in.

    In a world without courts and cameras I would shoot a robber with zero hesitation.

    In this world, however, my fear of prosecution would certainly cause me to hesitate to the point of losing much of my tactical edge.

  13. #42
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    I have read several replies, that raise questions in my mind, as to one's acceptance of the responsibility of carrying a weapon, and their mindset when it comes to survival. The biggest word in raising these questions is "HESITATION"... I submit to eveyone that carries a weapon, you need to resolve in your mind that when you draw your weapon, there will be no "hesitation"... You need to resolve in your mind that your survival will be dependent on not worrying about the potential court battle after the fact. If you stop to worry about the court battle before you make your decision, then most likely you will be dead. You need to resolve the "court battle" thinking ahead of time.

    "Is Deadly Force Justified?...It can only be used in the immediate or otherwise unavoidable threat of death or great bodily injury to an innocent person (YOU). If you are in the right "It doesn't matter what you did." AND... If you are in the wrong "It doesn't matter what you did." Don't worry about litigation when you need to worry about your life. Anything can be demonized by an attorney or a jury, ANYTHING! Problem one - Saving your life. Problem two - Everything else. JMO
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  14. #43
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    Assuming the thief had a weapon pulled, which i could not see in the video, I would say the officer did the correct thing. Could he have attempted to stop the BG without shooting him right away, sure, but that would put himself and the other customers at greater risk of being struck by a bullet. Even though the BG was not pointing a gun directly at the off duty cop, the BG is committing a violent crime with a deadly weapon so to protect yourself you must assume he is willing to use the gun on anyone in the surrounding area. I doubt I would have reacted as fast and smoothly as the officer but i say he did exactly as he should. Unfortunately if this was in America the off duty cop would probably be sued, fired from his job, and possibly gone to jail because of all the bleeding hearts in this country who think these criminals should have more rights than people defending themselves.

  15. #44
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    Like the video, the shoot/no shoot decision is edited, clipped, and grainy. As a non-LEO private citizen in the state I live in, based solely upon what I CAN discern from the video, I would not want to argue my decision to shoot in a court of law. The LEO enjoys a certain leeway/privilege/benefit of the doubt with the court system to which I as a private citizen am not entitled. It ain't my money, the threat has his back to me (until called out to, it appears), and does not seem interested in doing anything other than making his getaway. No, I do not take the shot.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  16. #45
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    Interesting first post, to be sure... and a well done video. The convenience store robbery presented in the OP seems almost to be "The Travis Solution" in real life... And the Pincus video followup is quite good as well, exploring all the options... Losing, winning, or being a good witness.

    I do believe that the Travis solution is one viable option... and post it here (again) for consideration:



    And in Travis's situation, he could have done either (witness well, or kill the perp). He also allowed for the BG to move and clear the back drop...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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