(Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE

This is a discussion on (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I often think about what decisions will I have to make if I ever have to draw my firearm. So, I put a video series ...

View Poll Results: WOULD YOU HAVE SHOT?

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  • YES

    39 56.52%
  • NO

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  • NOT SURE

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Thread: (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE

  1. #1
    New Member Array MrColionNoir's Avatar
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    (Video) SHOOT OR DONT SHOOT? KNOWING WHEN TO SHOOT ISN'T ALWAYS BLACK AND WHITE



    I often think about what decisions will I have to make if I ever have to draw my firearm. So, I put a video series together to get you guys opinion about certain scenarios and posed the question, would you shoot?
    Spirit51, DaveH, rigel42 and 3 others like this.

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    VIP Member Array Badey's Avatar
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    Good Video! Thanks for posting it, and welcome to the forum!
    "My problem with life is not that it is rational nor that it is irrational, but that it is almost rational." - G.K. Chesterton

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    New Member Array MrColionNoir's Avatar
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    Thanks, why it has taken me this long is beyond my comprehension.

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    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Cop even waited for an appropriate "backstop" - when the guy with the gun cleared the customer at the counter.

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    First welcome to the forum. Very well made video and dialogue.

    You will have to look at this from a couple of different angles. The video is from Brazil so there rules of engagement for police may be different than those here. As you stated he did not hesitate once a threat was identified he engaged, period. From an LE perspective he did what he was trained to do.

    Now looking at this from the standpoint that he is simply a concealed carrier. Except for the fact that the suspect has turned towards you he has not raised his weapon, he has not stated anything, at least that anyone reacted to, he is not moving towards you in an aggresive manner so is he a direct immediate threat to you? At this point comes the big question, he is not robbing you, at this point, he is not directly threatening you so the options would be, Seek cover be a good witness? Engage the suspect and protect others? Simply fade back into the store and do neither?

    There have been heated debates on this very subject. I carry to protect me and mine only or I would engage the suspect to protect others which they always seem to spiral out of control so the following is what I would do based on what I know, what training I have and knowing what skill level I am at.
    I would draw and seek cover if available, give a verbal challenge. If the suspect at that point raised his weapon I would engage. If he turns and flees great let him go. Others would do something different and I am in no way downplaying or criticizing their decision.

    On a sidenote the guy in the green shirt was not leaving that store without his money, robber or not, gunfire or not. Gotta love it.
    mano3 and Longbow like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    New Member Array MrColionNoir's Avatar
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    I completely agree with this!
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    First welcome to the forum. Very well made video and dialogue.

    You will have to look at this from a couple of different angles. The video is from Brazil so there rules of engagement for police may be different than those here. As you stated he did not hesitate once a threat was identified he engaged, period. From an LE perspective he did what he was trained to do.

    Now looking at this from the standpoint that he is simply a concealed carrier. Except for the fact that the suspect has turned towards you he has not raised his weapon, he has not stated anything, at least that anyone reacted to, he is not moving towards you in an aggresive manner so is he a direct immediate threat to you? At this point comes the big question, he is not robbing you, at this point, he is not directly threatening you so the options would be, Seek cover be a good witness? Engage the suspect and protect others? Simply fade back into the store and do neither?

    There have been heated debates on this very subject. I carry to protect me and mine only or I would engage the suspect to protect others which they always seem to spiral out of control so the following is what I would do based on what I know, what training I have and knowing what skill level I am at.
    I would draw and seek cover if available, give a verbal challenge. If the suspect at that point raised his weapon I would engage. If he turns and flees great let him go. Others would do something different and I am in no way downplaying or criticizing their decision.

    On a sidenote the guy in the green shirt was not leaving that store without his money, robber or not, gunfire or not. Gotta love it.

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    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
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    Like tacman said, I'd take cover, draw and command. Hopefully the guy would just flee...
    US Air Force, 1986 - 2007

    "To disarm the people is the best and most effective way to enslave them..." George Mason

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    Just subscribed to your youtube channel. Good stuff.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Member Array aworldexport's Avatar
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    I would hope to have reacted the same way. The BG is a threat the moment he entered with gun in hand demanding money. Why take the risk of being shot by yelling out "freeze!". Why should a carrier place their life endanger by hesitating. To me it is clear cut. I have seen video after video of BG's who have shot victims even though they complied with the Bg's demands. Whose to say if the money wasnt given to them fast enough they wouldnt shoot someone. Whose to say the BG wouldnt have shot any of the customers. By the looks of the BG hes hyped up on drugs.I totally agree with the actions of the officer. In this situation it is way to dangerous to give the BG quarter. If it was a knife and there was more distance between the officer and the BG, ok i could see ordering them to drop the weapon.However if its a gun distance doesnt mean a thing i would have shot from 15 feet away the same as being 5 feet away.This BG is a threat to everyone there.
    kmagnuss likes this.

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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Wow, what a great way to join the forum. Glad to have you here.

    Michael
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    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    Welcome to the DC Forum.

    The senario has an erroneous assumption. First a LE does not become a conceal carry when off duty or not in uniform. An LE has different set rules or legal charges as a sworn officer of the Law. Additionally, We don't know the verbal of the confrontation and in this case the person is armed and the officer can use deadly force if he feels the action is justified given the action of the individual.

    With that being said, as a conceal carry, non LE, our last resort is the use of deadly force. Given that, I would draw, move back, and give verbal commands to "STOP" - "DROP THE WEAPON". Should the individual start to raise the weapon or move toward me or another person it would be two to center mass and one to the cranium. Note this senario is well within the 21 foot rule (Tueller Drill). So reaction time is well below the 1.5 seconds of that rule.


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    Member Array aworldexport's Avatar
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    Makes zero sense to me to place your life at risk by ordering the guy to drop the gun when all it would take is a 1 second flip and pull of the trigger and i am recieving a round to my chest. A robber with a gun in the commission of a felony doesnt deserve a chance to take my life or anothers. Makes no sense to me to give up tactical surprise. Folks have said "i will order him to drop the gun and IF he raises the gun then i will do such and such." So now you both have a split second to shoot each other. Your saying i trade in my split second chance in exchange for what? Go from having a split second advantage to a split second disadvantage. Sorry not going to do it.
    Badey, kmagnuss, ks kid and 1 others like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    Welcome to the DC Forum.

    The senario has an erroneous assumption. First a LE does not become a conceal carry when off duty or not in uniform. An LE has different set rules or legal charges as a sworn officer of the Law. Additionally, We don't know the verbal of the confrontation and in this case the person is armed and the officer can use deadly force if he feels the action is justified given the action of the individual.

    With that being said, as a conceal carry, non LE, our last resort is the use of deadly force. Given that, I would draw, move back, and give verbal commands to "STOP" - "DROP THE WEAPON". Should the individual start to raise the weapon or move toward me or another person it would be two to center mass and one to the cranium. Note this senario is well within the 21 foot rule (Tueller Drill). So reaction time is well below the 1.5 seconds of that rule.
    What is a 21-foot rule?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

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    As I (re)watched the video, it appears that the BG is beginning to raise his right hand the instant before the GG shot. Whether or not the GG was aware of this, and whether or not that played into his decision to shoot, we can't know. However, if he DID see it, he (very correctly, IMO) may have made the assumption that the BG was raising his weapon in order to shoot. At this point, "shoot or no-shoot" is solidly and fully answered.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    aworldexport.

    As I stated I would do the things I would do based on my knowledge, mindset and skill level you would act based on yours. If you feel that you would give up your tactical advantage by issueing a verbal challenge, ok not a problem, I do not feel that I would.
    His weapon was not raised or pointed at the officer so the officer had the advantage, the suspect would be drawing against the drop, a place you do not want to be.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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