This may be a bit controversial here but...

This may be a bit controversial here but...

This is a discussion on This may be a bit controversial here but... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have been reading a number of posts for a while now about what people would do in hypothetical situations where they needed to use ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array NYMike's Avatar
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    This may be a bit controversial here but...

    I have been reading a number of posts for a while now about what people would do in hypothetical situations where they needed to use their weapon in self defense. In most every proposed situation the BG is dead, not wounded with the GG standing above the body awaiting law enforcement and the coroner to arrive.

    Why is it that every one who writes these threads assume that is the only outcome. We are not all Jeff Coopers or Navy Seals. I would venture most of us don't have extensive and or proper training, or even any. It is a fact, not opinion that most gun owners in the US buy their weapon and a box of ammo and put it in the nightstand drawer thinking when the time comes they will rise to the occasion and do what needs to be done. In fact it is far less likely. Most people go to the range less than once a year. Not everybody of course but studies and polls have shown this to be evident.

    In fact it is more likely that the GG will be wounded in a gunfight than the perp if the GG is reacting to an attack, but the proposed hypothetical scenarios never are posed or assumed to end this way, and I want to know why. I believe this overconfidence and self assuredness may be extremely detrimental and dangerous to the point of deadly.

    I believe it firmly when we are told 95% of gun owners simply do not know what they do not know.

    Many professional trainers hate these forums for the dangerous info given out on them. Yes there is a wealth of good info here as well, that's why I love reading this stuff. But it scares me for the folks that don't now enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. Alot of armchair commandos are like if someone comes into my home in the middle of the night I'm gonna blow him away. It's not that easy, and the after effects are seldom thought through.

    Even if you kill someone in SD and are deemed justified it may be after a protracted and extremely expensive legal defense. You may (probably) lose everything you have, your job, your home your wife and family, friends, possibly your life. So you must think ahead of time what is worth losing everything i have. Surely my families life and well being... Not much else. Not my jewelery, car, pride, etc... That's what insurance is for. I just watched a video of a guy who got killed stopping someone from stealing his moped, a $1200 dollar moped.

    You may kill the bad guy and get killed as well. Ask the Oklahoman pharmacist or George Zimmerman how easy it is to kill someone and live with it after. Any doubt they woul have acted differently if they had to do it all over again? There's the other nightmare as well... Being justified and still convicted or losing a big civil trial.
    Last edited by NYMike; May 2nd, 2012 at 09:34 AM. Reason: Adding info and corrected spell errors
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    I mostly agree. I see a lot of bravado coming from people on this forum and others. Fortunately they are in a very small minority. I did a poll a couple of weeks ago and members here said that only about 10 percent or less seriously train for SD. And only a small fraction here have taken a life or had to use their weapon in SD or in combat. And most would agree taking a life is not a cavalier thing to do. Many folks have voiced that they have no problems taking a life if someone breaks in their house. And they most likely are covered by Castle Doctrines. But, do you have to shoot everything you see? The more one trains, the more one is more likely to think clearly in a situation and confident in their abilities to react to a situation. This may give them the extra second to assess the situation and may not have to fire if some drunk makes their way onto you deck or porch by accident. I am not saying if i doubt and you have a real fear for yourself or family.
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  3. #3
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    No arguments from me. Lots of good points.
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    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  4. #4
    Member Array 1984's Avatar
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    I have to agree

    Almost every time I read the scenarios I am thinking, and often posting, against the use of a gun except in the gravest extreme. I don't criticize police marksmanship because in most of those scenarios I'd be running like mad, and they cannot.

    I make exception to home invasion type scenarios where there are just too many examples of families not resisting either getting killed or even worse. In those cases I think one has no choice and should remind themselves of that daily so as to never hesitate or ever even consider for a moment one would fail to defeat the invader. I think that should be a daily/nightly mental ritual. You won't do what you can't think you can do.

    What I sometimes see is that in some scenarios people will post about public crimes in which they will take tactical positions and draw and ready, while in other scenarios they won't even answer their front door. It may not be the same posters of course but it does give the impression of itchy trigger fingers rather that a genuine spirit of helping the community.

    But its certainly not limited to here. How many ranges do you practice at where someone is shouting "STOP" before they start unloading into the target. I took personal self defense lessons from a local highly touted person here and I had to coach that person into integrating those sorts of aspects of training into the course. If I own a gun only for self defense (and I do) and I run 50,000 rounds through it in "training" I ought to be shouting "STOP" at least 5,000 times.

    You will do what you always do when adrenaline is flowing, period. I have no self defense first hand knowledge but enough in other areas to know for certain this is the case at least for me.

    A currently in the news case in Florida with a shooting by a neighborhood watch person has a witness calling 911 during the fatal scuffle. I really wonder how much it would have helped to hear the shooter unmistakenly and loudly shouting STOP on that 911 tape before the shooting. We don't hear it so we won't know. Maybe he trained to do that and couldn't. I don't know.

    Its very funny- people at the range will give you crap about disurbing them if you do, while they punch 10mm double tap loads through the paper.

    I think required reading for concealed carry should be at least the cliff notes versions of the Anderson report on the "Miami shootout". I have not bought the book myself to read, mostly because Anderson is a convicted child molester now and I don't want to take the chance of lining his pockets.

    Having said that I think an impartial read of the excerpts of the report from what I can google is an eye opener. Its a very very very important read because it will put a lot of the caliber wars, shot placement, and ill defined "get more training" posts into perspective. I wish I had read it first, rather than a bunchy of selected and often biased or incomplete understandings of it first, as part of my education. Fortunately I would not have changed anything but it would have saved me some time.

    If I were king I'd make it mandatory as part of any concealed carry permit class or self defense course. Of course, I'd also mandate CPR, basic first aid, and instructions on the importance of insurance as well. But that's me.
    Posts are for entertainment only. I have no training, database, background, knowledge of law, skills, or conviction of belief that anything I post is safe or relevant for your situation and bear no responsibility for any actions or events related to your interpretation of any of my post(s).

  5. #5
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    "In the Gravest Extreme", Mas has it summed up in the title.
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  6. #6
    New Member Array ToddR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post

    I think required reading for concealed carry should be at least the cliff notes versions of the Anderson report on the "Miami shootout".
    Massad Ayoob has a "Cliff Notes" version of that in an American Handgunner article. Can't remember what month, but it was within the past year.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    NYMike sounds like he could have been the instructor at my carry permit class. He made it clear that meeting the requirements for a carry permit in my state did not constitute sufficient training to prepare you to use a gun in self defense. I don't know if other instructors do that, but they are doing a disservice to their students if they don't.
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    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array NH_Esau's Avatar
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    Really good points. Some pile-ons:
    - Read On Killing, by Grossman. Great info on psychological effects of killing on the killer. Use it as motivation not so much to prepare yourself for the possibility of killing someone, but to do your best to prepare and act so that you never have to do so. The extraordinary warrior uses his extraordinary judgement to avoid extraordinary circumstances where his extraordinary skills are necessary.

    - Find an experienced and talented self-defense attorney. Now. Spend some time and $ talking to him/her and getting smart. Have the attorney's 24/7 number in your speed dial, and listed as one of your "ICE" contacts in your phone, and the business card under your CCW license.

    - Self defense training should include first aid. If you can find one, combat first aid and self-aid. Improvising a pressure bandage/dressing from what you have on you in street clothing is one thing. Doing it on your strong arm without the use of that arm, while bleeding and in pain is another.

    - Something I'm trying to work on more - training to the exit. SHTF, you draw and fire, BG(s) down, wounded, or running away. 911 called. Lawyer called. Now what? Keep BG covered? Take cover and reload? Holster and wait? Retreat to safety? It all depends on the situation, but what are some good rules of thumb I can drill into my brain's "muscle memory" so that it remembers it when it's adrenaline-dumb?

    Sure, I've taken and will continue to take some formal training, and I'm dedicated in practicing regularly on my own out on the range and dry-firing inside/outside, but I'm not doing it every day. In a perfect world of unlimited time and budgets, I could spend a decade under the direct tutelage of Mas Ayoob, Gabe Suarez, and maybe Jackie Chan, simultaneously. But I've got a real-world life, including real-world family, job, home, and wallet, so some of this has to be me just working it out myself.
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  9. #9
    VIP Member Array Civil_Response's Avatar
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    I'll get shot trying to decide which gun to grab.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMike View Post
    Even if you kill someone in SD and are deemed justified it may be after a protracted and extremely expensive legal defense. You may (probably) lose everything you have, your job, your home your wife and family, friends, possibly your life. So you must think ahead of time what is worth losing everything i have. Surely my families life and well being... Not much else. Not my jewelery, car, pride, etc... That's what insurance is for. I just watched a video of a guy who got killed stopping someone from stealing his moped, a $1200 dollar moped.
    I'd rather plead my case to a jury than plead for my life to a crack head.

  11. #11
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    It's easy to talk tough from the comfort of your living room. I may even be guilty of "internet commando" syndrome every now and again.
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    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

  12. #12
    Member Array 1984's Avatar
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    With all do respect to Ayoob I think there is more out there so anyone who's interested also read up on sites that try to summarize Anderson's work and especially check out the FBI website for what they have released under the freedom of information act.

    Even Anderson had to revise things 3 times.

    I am not trying to hijack the thread but I think there is synergy here in what NYMike is posting at least with respect to training. Very highly trained officers with the edge in knowledge, numbers and surprise and initially cover.

    What happened is important to understand before you decide what role you would play in a lot of active bad guy scenarios in which you have none of those advantages.
    Posts are for entertainment only. I have no training, database, background, knowledge of law, skills, or conviction of belief that anything I post is safe or relevant for your situation and bear no responsibility for any actions or events related to your interpretation of any of my post(s).

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYMike View Post
    I have been reading a number of posts for a while now about what people would do in hypothetical situations where they needed to use their weapon in self defense. In most every proposed situation the BG is dead, not wounded with the GG standing above the body awaiting law enforcement and the coroner to arrive. Sir, may I point out that your imagination, while reading the replies to scenarios, far exceeds the facts in the replies to these scenarios. IF someone must pull their weapon in self defense, then I would venture to say they will shoot to STOP THE THREAT! In many circumstances, that means the BG is DEAD...YES DEAD. I personally do not shoot to wound, and in these scenarios, would you? I call Bravo Sierra on your statement concerning the GG standing above the body awaiting law enforcement and the coroner to arrive. How about showing me ALL these so called threads that demonstrate that, better yet, just show me a couple of them.

    Why is it that every one who writes these threads assume that is the only outcome. Again, your imagination doth run amuck! There are many differing opinions in most every scenario posted. The reason they are differing, is because each individual is different, each situation is different. We are not all Jeff Coopers or Navy Seals. I would venture most of us don't have extensive and or proper training, or even any. Sir, there are training threads that have run in the forums here. Contrary to YOUR assumption concerning folks on DC, MANY of us have had extensive and proper training. You Sir should speak for yourself and perhaps not make as many assumptions as you do. What training have YOU had? It is a fact, not opinion that most gun owners in the US buy their weapon and a box of ammo and put it in the nightstand drawer thinking when the time comes they will rise to the occasion and do what needs to be done. In fact it is far less likely. Most people go to the range less than once a year. Not everybody of course but studies and polls have shown this to be evident. Sir, you are quick again, to quote facts...how about citing a reference to these facts. I think most of the folks here on DC, and now I'm assuming, do more than purchase a weapon and put it in the nighstand drawer, and most probably do more than fire their weapon once a year. But, perhaps those of you here on DC that do exactly that will enlighten me if I am incorrect. Better yet, Sir, this would be an excellent poll for you to start here on DC...How many folks purchase a weapon and leave it in the drawer? How many folks purchase a weapon and don't go to the range more than once a year? Then you might have some DC statistics to reference in your posts.

    In fact it is more likely that the GG will be wounded in a gunfight than the perp if the GG is reacting to an attack, but the proposed hypothetical scenarios never are posed or assumed to end this way, and I want to know why. Where do you get your assumptions? I want to know WHY you think this way. Have you ever had to use your weapon in self defense, shot anyone, been wounded? I believe this overconfidence and self assuredness may be extremely detrimental and dangerous to the point of deadly. Sir, I do agree with you in a small way on this point. Your weapon is NOT a magic talisman that will protect you from all evil. In order to develop confidence and self assuredness, it is imperative that you train, train, and train some more, otherwise you can definitely bite off more than you can chew.

    I believe it firmly when we are told 95% of gun owners simply do not know what they do not know. Again Sir, you "believe" what you are told and fail to provide any reliable statistics. The water you are drinking seems a bit tainted.

    Many professional trainers hate these forums for the dangerous info given out on them. Sir, has it ever occurred to you, that some of the information given out on these forums is provided by INSTRUCTORS themselves? Has it ever occurred to you, that MANY instructors frequent THIS forum and not only provide input, but also have the ability to rebuke false information that is presented. Yes there is a wealth of good info here as well, that's why I love reading this stuff. But it scares me for the folks that don't now enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. From the statements in this post, I believe YOU might be one of those city farmers having difficulty in separating the wheat from the chaff. Alot of armchair commandos are like if someone comes into my home in the middle of the night I'm gonna blow him away. It's not that easy, and the after effects are seldom thought through. I don't believe anyone has stated that defending ones self in a home invasion will be easy. And I don't think I've heard or seen anyone write on here that if they had to use their weapon in self defense, that there wouldn't be after effects that they and most probably their family would have to work through. Perhaps YOU haven't thought out the after effects, but please don't ASSume that all others haven't.

    Even if you kill someone in SD and are deemed justified it may be after a protracted and extremely expensive legal defense. You may (probably) lose everything you have, your job, your home your wife and family, friends, possibly your life. So you must think ahead of time what is worth losing everything i have. Surely my families life and well being... Not much else. Well, finally, I agree with your statement. Not my jewelery, car, pride, etc... That's what insurance is for. I just watched a video of a guy who got killed stopping someone from stealing his moped, a $1200 dollar moped.

    You may kill the bad guy and get killed as well. Sir, this is an acceptance of the responsibility of carrying a concealed weapon and the potential results, should you have to use it in self defense. If you do not have a survival MINDSET, if you have not TRAINED to prepare yourself, if you have not thought out the EMOTIONAL aspects for yourself and your family, should you take a life or heaven forbid, lose your life, then you need to put the weapon in the drawer as you stated in the beginning of your post. Ask the Oklahoman pharmacist or George Zimmerman how easy it is to kill someone and live with it after. Any doubt they woul have acted differently if they had to do it all over again? Again Sir, you loosely throw out two examples without thinking before you speak. The Oklahoma pharmacist came back and "finished off" the BG, so sure, needless to say he would have done it differently, but you can't fix stupid. As for Zimmerman, I believe there have been NO firm conclusions as to the legality of his use of his weapon, so I would certainly refrain from using that as an example There's the other nightmare as well... Being justified and still convicted or losing a big civil trial. Ahhh..our second point of agreement. If you are in the right, it doesn't matter what you did and if you are in the wrong it doesn't matter what you did. You can't worry about litigation however, when you need to worry about your life. Anything can be demonized, by either attorneys or juries. You have to face two problems....Problem one - Saving your life and Problem two - Everything else!
    Sir, I have tried to reply to your OP in bold above. Obviously these are MY OPINIONS, just like your post is YOUR OPINION. Be safe Sir, and TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    Sir, I have tried to reply to your OP in bold above. Obviously these are MY OPINIONS, just like your post is YOUR OPINION. Be safe Sir, and TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN.
    I am glad I said I "mostly agree" with the OP LOL. I guess the biggest thing I agree on is the training that firearm owner actually do. I referenced an obviously non scientific poll that this forum participated in and 68 % said 10 percent or less train realistically for SD
    What percentage of OC and CCer's do you think realistically train

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1984 View Post
    With all do respect to Ayoob I think there is more out there so anyone who's interested also read up on sites that try to summarize Anderson's work and especially check out the FBI website for what they have released under the freedom of information act.

    Even Anderson had to revise things 3 times.

    I am not trying to hijack the thread but I think there is synergy here in what NYMike is posting at least with respect to training. Very highly trained officers with the edge in knowledge, numbers and surprise and initially cover.

    What happened is important to understand before you decide what role you would play in a lot of active bad guy scenarios in which you have none of those advantages.
    Here is an Anderson read:
    FBI-Miami Shootout
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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