Shenandoah National Park sign that says firearms must be unloaded - Page 2

Shenandoah National Park sign that says firearms must be unloaded

This is a discussion on Shenandoah National Park sign that says firearms must be unloaded within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by JungleJim I believe the concealed carry in National parks is tied to the State laws that the park is in. Here in ...

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Thread: Shenandoah National Park sign that says firearms must be unloaded

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JungleJim View Post
    I believe the concealed carry in National parks is tied to the State laws that the park is in. Here in Fla we could CCW carry in State parks so we can conceal carry since the federal regulations changed.
    National parks follow the general gun laws of the state. National park carry is not tied to state park carry. Totally different issues. The confusion is that this law took two tries to come about. That was a provision of the first try, not the second.

    FWIW, a lot of trail heads in the Smokies have no firearms signs. They have not bothered to change them. Since they are wrong, I ignore them. Also, I believe a federal sign has to list the US code it is enforcing to be legal. I'm not 100% sure on that. But every no guns sign I have come across on buildings in the parks looks like this.

    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    Keep in mind that in many of the buildings on national parks it is illegal to have any firearms.
    And USC 18 s.930(g)(1) says that those "buildings" refer to any
    "'Federal facility'... a building or part thereof owned or leased by the Federal Government, where Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties." -
    Quote Originally Posted by Crowman View Post
    Yes, you carry concealed which does not insure they will never find out.... [T]hey [might] find your weapon. The "feds" have no sense of humor and will charge you which knowing the "feds" it will be a felony....
    Under subsection, (a), of the same statute, USC 18 s.930:
    (a) .... whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
    weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    Since the penalty is for not more than 1 year, the crime for simple possession in a federal facility seems to be less than a felony, though IANAL.
    BTW, if you're wondering if it's OK to carry in an outhouse or such stand-alone building and don't know if the building is where "Federal employees are regularly present for the purpose of performing their official duties," take note of sub-section (h):
    Notice of the provisions of subsections (a) and (b) shall be posted conspicuously at each public entrance to each Federal facility,... and no person shall be convicted of an offense under subsection (a)... with respect to a Federal facility if such notice is not so posted at such facility, unless such person had actual notice of subsection (a)..., as the case may be.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    I'm betting it's a free lance sign... put up by some unknown person.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I'm betting it's a free lance sign... put up by some unknown person.
    Who then broke the law by nailing it to a tree! Ironic....
    Aceoky likes this.
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    EOD - Initial success or total failure

  5. #20
    Ex Member Array RayBar's Avatar
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    Looks like a forgery to me .I know moneys tight,but hand painted?Call the Rangers office and ask them about it.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    I'm betting it's a free lance sign... put up by some unknown person.
    You are much more trusting than I am. I'd bet it is a sign posted with full knowledge of the people in charge of operating the park on a daily basis. They know that it does not carry the weight of the law but they also know that the majority of people reading it will comply.

    In my area they are doing this with speed limit signs. Posting signs along the roads with lower speeds marked on them. The sighs do not look the same as the official speed signs and are not enforceable but most folks seeing them do not realize this.

    Michael

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    I run into similar type signs on forest service roads that say no motorized vehicles and no shooting. I drop by the rangers station and ask about closures and if I run into the signs rip them down.

  8. #23
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    Shenandoah National Park reply to sign

    Here is the email reply from the SNP.

    Thank you for bringing this to our attention. I will forward it to our
    Deputy Chief Ranger and our Sign person. Someone will respond to you. It
    is probably one we missed. Thanks again.


    Lisa J. Taglauer
    Secretary, Office of the Superintendent
    Shenandoah National Park
    540-999-3500 x 3400

    I have driven this road for 30 years. One lane trail up the mountain. I know every turn, bump and sign on the road. That is a new sign that was put up within the past 6 months. After the national park ccw policy was changed, all the "no weapons" signs came down. Then recently this one went up. Most of the signs in that area are brown like this one.

    I never noticed it but thanks to the person that posted about the nail through the tree. I went up there yesterday and EVERY national park service sign on the length of the road is nailed to the trees.

    "Don't do as I do, do as I say" apparently applies here. Thanks again to all who replied. I will post any additional comments.
    GunGeezer and msgt/ret like this.

  9. #24
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    I know there are areas of the SNP that border state hunting lands. The park will allow access to those areas thru the park by permit. Weapons must be unloaded and cased while on park property. I don't think that is an official SNP sign. The appearance is all wrong. Regardless, the regs are clear, cow is allowed except in buildings.

  10. #25
    New Member Array my2friends's Avatar
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    SNP response to my question

    Here is the Shenandoan National Park response to the sign:

    Dear Sir,

    I'm writing this email to let you know that one of the Rangers responded to
    the location of the sign you reported. The sign is posted in Madison
    County, where it is required by law to unload any rifles located in a
    vehicle. Fork Mountain is in Madison County and traverses in and out of
    the Park and State & Game land. The sign is located directly under the "No
    Hunting, No Trapping" sign, thus reminding people who may not be from
    Madison County that if they are traveling the road during hunting seasons
    that they must unload there rifle. So the implication is of firearms
    related to hunting.

    Thank you for your concern. If you have any other questions, feel free to
    call me at the office number listed below.

    STAY SAFE!!!
    Mike Michener
    Deputy Chief Ranger
    Shenandoah National Park
    w: (540) 999-3500 (x3402)
    c: (540) 908-1637
    fax: (540) 999-3236
    "Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation
    with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the
    triumph"...Thomas Paine
    Aceoky and CIBMike like this.

  11. #26
    Ex Member Array Yankeejib's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RayBar View Post
    Looks like a forgery to me .I know moneys tight,but hand painted?Call the Rangers office and ask them about it.
    Sorry, but 2 out of 3 times, the NP rangers are in the dark about regs. They resemble local LE in that respect.

  12. #27
    Member Array 02PSD4ME's Avatar
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    I'm sure if you kept walking down the path, you would see another sign saying " You have a Purdy mouth"
    02PSD4ME

  13. #28
    Member Array Obie1's Avatar
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    Guess you don't have to have a solid grasp on grammar and spelling to be a park ranger.
    Yetiman likes this.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by my2friends View Post
    Here is the Shenandoan National Park response to the sign:

    Dear Sir,

    I'm writing this email to let you know that one of the Rangers responded to
    the location of the sign you reported. The sign is posted in Madison
    County, where it is required by law to unload any rifles located in a
    vehicle. Fork Mountain is in Madison County and traverses in and out of
    the Park and State & Game land. The sign is located directly under the "No
    Hunting, No Trapping" sign, thus reminding people who may not be from
    Madison County that if they are traveling the road during hunting seasons
    that they must unload there rifle. So the implication is of firearms
    related to hunting.


    Thank you for your concern. If you have any other questions, feel free to
    call me at the office number listed below.

    STAY SAFE!!!
    Mike Michener
    Deputy Chief Ranger
    Shenandoah National Park
    w: (540) 999-3500 (x3402)
    c: (540) 908-1637
    fax: (540) 999-3236
    "Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation
    with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the
    triumph"...Thomas Paine
    Um...yeah... As lowly citizenry we don't have the luxury of implications and assumptions. How about you actually clarify your signage properly the first time around!
    Anubis and Yetiman like this.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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  15. #30
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    National parks follow the general gun laws of the state. National park carry is not tied to state park carry. Totally different issues. The confusion is that this law took two tries to come about. That was a provision of the first try, not the second.

    FWIW, a lot of trail heads in the Smokies have no firearms signs. They have not bothered to change them. Since they are wrong, I ignore them. Also, I believe a federal sign has to list the US code it is enforcing to be legal. I'm not 100% sure on that. But every no guns sign I have come across on buildings in the parks looks like this.

    Here is a section of Title 18 USC 930; I have bolded a couple sections...

    (a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.
    (b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
    (c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon, or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
    (d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to—
    (1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
    (2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
    (3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.
    Pardon me but wouldn't carrying a handgun for personal protection as authorized by the state you are in be a lawful purpose????

    I have asked a US Attorney and got a non-committal type answer along the lines of "Well it would have to go to court and be decided" in other words someone will have to risk a felony and have a 55 gal drum of $100 bills to test it.

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