Unarmed security guard sees CCW, and it's illegal

This is a discussion on Unarmed security guard sees CCW, and it's illegal within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Call the campus PD and advise accordingly.... They should not be carrying in a location that is posted, simple as that......

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Thread: Unarmed security guard sees CCW, and it's illegal

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    Call the campus PD and advise accordingly....
    They should not be carrying in a location that is posted, simple as that...
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

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  3. #47
    Distinguished Member Array dimmak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    2nd

    By definition, there are no illegal laws. You and I may not like all of them, but it is the law.
    Enforce all the laws, treat everyone equally, and make sure you document everything... Can you tell I have been doing this for a while??
    +1....
    "Ray Nagin is a colossal disappointment" - NRA/ILA Executive Director Chris W. Cox.


    "...be water, my friend."

  4. #48
    3sh
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    Quote Originally Posted by myusername View Post
    I too am curious why they can't keep their gun in the car. In most states the law about not carrying on university campus' allows for in vehicle carry, if allowed in that state.
    here in GA it is not allowed. A university is considered the same as an elementary school. No Gun policy within 1,000ft.

  5. #49
    VIP Member Array Rob72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    2nd

    By definition, there are no illegal laws. You and I may not like all of them, but it is the law.
    Enforce all the laws, treat everyone equally, and make sure you document everything... Can you tell I have been doing this for a while??
    Nuremburg dealt pretty definitively with that argument. If the enforcing agent disregards the "Divinely Ordained Rights of Man" in the furtherance of State mandated laws, he/she may still be guilty of a capital crime. (The situation originally posted is a much broader argument, I do recognize, but a Constitutional democracy requires the individual to consider the validity of both his actions and the law, in relation to the Constitution- not simply follow the Pied Piper)

    I took an oath to support and defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
    Constitutional law supercedes State/Local law. It is also the nature of that oath to impart the responsibility for action (or inaction) not on Generals or politicians, but on the persons swearing that oath to the nation. We fought a revolution because of this exact perceptual difference, and there is a substantive body of philosophical and legal literature substantiating the Revolution. Law is not simply "The LAW", it is based in one fashion or another, on moral precepts. If you don't know, or disagree with, those precepts, then you live by the Law, and are in no way able to judge its revelance or its validity to society. There is the real world......and academia.

    The other argument I present is that, as a field responder, it is my job to triage in the field. By strictest definition, only those with the greatest chance of survival are rendered immediate assistance. The practical aspect is that by prolonging the life (whether it is "saved" or not) of someone with knowledge, experience or authority with environmental context, it may be possible to maximize that resource to save a greater percentage of the whole. If you and your wife, who we shall say is pregnant, are in a Level I MVA-vs a 54 y/o OB attending physician, who is the most seriously injured. Your wife however, has gone into labor. Do you want me to take a few minutes to see if the OB can be stabilized enough to offer me direction.... or do you want me to get started with your family and wing it? Bear in mind that it has no personal relevance to me. If you believe protocol is to followed, regardless of circumstances, please send me your name, and, should I encounter you in professional circumstances, I will respect your "belief system".

    If I do not see something, I cannot be held, strictly, accountable. Whether they are armed or not, I would report "suspicious/possibly agressive/dangerous" persons to LE. Having worked in similar circumstances, myself.................

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    +1 Rob72, Well said.

  7. #51
    Member Array Hobbes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post

    Constitutional law supercedes State/Local law.
    Exactly, this is what I'm getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob72 View Post
    If I do not see something, I cannot be held, strictly, accountable. Whether they are armed or not, I would report "suspicious/possibly agressive/dangerous" persons to LE. Having worked in similar circumstances, myself.................
    This is a good way to go, see somebody aggressive etc...report that.

  8. #52
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    By definition, there are no illegal laws. You and I may not like all of them, but it is the law.
    Enforce all the laws, treat everyone equally, and make sure you document everything... Can you tell I have been doing this for a while??
    Just what "defintion" are you using ?

    There are many "illegal" laws. Just because the mayor of a city gets the other 8 members of the city council to vote for a law, dosent make it legal or even right, and these "laws" get overturned constantly. The courts are full of laws that get challenged at one level or another and people are constanly getting judgments from people that didnt do enough reasearch the first time around.

    As stated by our Sheriff on many occasions, he does not not want his Deputys blindy "enforcing the law." He expects us to do the right thing, treat everyone as we would like to be treated, and to use common sense.
    He tells us that if do these things that everything else will take care of themselves. As a result of this policy, we have very few lawsuits, very few complaints and a fairly harmonius working relationship with everyone around us and we get a lot of community support. Apparently everyone likes it, the Sheriff has run unopposed on the last two elections.

    Beleiving every law to be legal, or just, and blindly enforcing said law, effectively removes the last layer of protection that a citizen has from illegal or abusive laws passed by the government, whether it be local or state of federal.

    Then you don't belong in the world of law enforcement. Like it or not, whether you are a local cop, an FBI agent, or a mall security guard you are there for a reason. You don't get to pick the laws you like, you enforce them all. If you don't like the laws, get yourself elected and change them.
    Sounds good. We actually have a law on the books that make it illegal to shop on Sunday that dates back to the 40's. Perhaps we ought to arrest every single business owner and employee that works on Sunday first. Then we could set up at the doors and bust people as they walk in...I mean, technically they are breaking the law right? We could start at Walmart, heck we could fill up every jail in the county in minutes. Then we could shut down all of the Minimarts and PDQ's and even the local mall. Even though it would accomplish NOTHING...its the LAW so we must enforce it.

    Or we could start issuing tickes for speeding. The interstate would be the fist hit. Just imagine how much revenue we could make when started pulling people over for doing 1 mile over the limit. Or pehaps every single person that does not stop for a sign and fails to let the weight settle on the back tires and "rolls" though it shoud be cited and charged 125 bucks everytime they do a "rolling stop",I mean...it is the LAW right? It must be enforced.

    What a bunch of crap.

    I dont suppose that ANY of us working for the Sheriff belong in Law Enforcement. Ecspecially he, as he uses way to much common sense, but the people that have elected him for the last 18 years are obviously ignorant of the LAW right?

    Perhaps we need a bunch of robotic,brainless LEO's that have no common sense and could care less about what is right or wrong or how the LAW affects our lives for better or worse. That way we could have every single law enforced 100 precent of the time and if the people didnt like it they could all run for office to get it changed, even if they had to wait 3 or 4 years for the next election. Never mind that the LAW might be ill written, ill though out or just downright stupid, it is he LAW and if we dont enforce it what good are we? If we cant just follow orders perhaps we all ought to turn in our badges and ID's and guns and quit right now.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  9. #53
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    HotGuns,

    If that is your SOP then GREAT.

    I was only stating IMO that an individual officer should never decide on their own which laws to enforce and on whom. Most departments give their officers some leeway and allow for "officer discretion", but that discretion can easily become "off balance". If this happens, you may be seen as prejudicial, racial, or someone who "selectively enforces the law" on a regular basis.

    The idea that you are going to "let it slide" on some laws may be ok in your department, but be careful this is a very slippery slope. Where do you stop? If it's ok to overlook a CCW in an off limits place like a university and speeding 10MPH over on the highway then what about someone who CCW's illegally in your police station or speeding of 10MPH over in a school zone? Is there a difference? If so, how much? Where do you draw the line? When is enough enough? When is it too much?

    Each department has their own policies in place to regulate what their officers can and cannot do and what they should and should not do (yes there is a difference). Make sure you ALLWAYS follow these regulations and, as I said in my prior post, make sure you remain consistent in your enforcement, document everything, and always CYA.
    "Personal weapons are what raised mankind out of the mud..."
    -Jeff Cooper, "The Art of the Rifle"

  10. #54
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    Again, it's not choosing which laws to enforce. It is looking at something and saying, "this isn't right, this law goes against the constitution" speeding isn't unconstitutional, neither is shopping on sundays, but infringing on people's right to bear arms is.
    I took an oath to support and defend the constitution, don't police officers as well? If you did, and you willingly follow a law such as this, I think you would be in violation of your oath.

  11. #55
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    The idea that you are going to "let it slide" on some laws may be ok in your department, but be careful this is a very slippery slope. Where do you stop? If it's ok to overlook a CCW in an off limits place like a university and speeding 10MPH over on the highway then what about someone who CCW's illegally in your police station or speeding of 10MPH over in a school zone? Is there a difference? If so, how much? Where do you draw the line? When is enough enough? When is it too much?
    Yeah that always the question isnt it ?

    Thats where common sense comes in. Something that seems to be lacking more and more as time rolls on. You've got to use your best judgment and do the best you can.I've seen cops arrest someone that had a CCW, sieze their weapon, tow their vehicle, and take them to jail and for what purpose ? Wheres the good in it? It'll end up costing someone thousands of bucks for a laywer, he'll be charged with a weapons related crime, lose his ability to protect himself forever and for what ? Because his permit wasnt "officialy"recgonized or he may have been in place where he wasnt suppose to tote.

    Common sense would tell us that he aint a bad guy, he dosent deserve a jail cubicle and perhaps just a talking too would prevent all of the above from happening.Sure, he may have violated a law, but so what? Was anyone harmed? Was anyone in fear for their life? No.No and No.

    If the guy got never got "made" and walked out on his own noone would have been the wiser.



    Speaking of common sense, or lack of in this case.....here's a small story that you can appreciate and one that irks me to no end...it happended about a week ago...

    A man came home and noticed his garage window broken. Looking around he didnt notice anything missing, he walks over to the door going into the house and notices that the door jamb is busted and splintered but entry had not been made. He calls the cops, they go in, secure the place and fill out a report.

    This guy has a CCW. Two days later, the guy is sitting in his living room in his easy chair, sees the shadow of a guy through the curtain, and this guys walks around the house. The guy calls 911, grabs a gun and see some dude sticking his head in the broke window of his garage. He throws down on him and tell the guy not to move. Guy leaves the window and homeowner is thinking that the guy ran off, walks around to the back of the garage and is forced at gun point to drop weapon, lay on ground and get cuffed. Its seems that the homeowner pulled a gun on a cop, but as the cop was not wearing his hat, and since he could not see a uniform the guy had no idea it was a cop that he saw.

    So far, I have no problem with that...as the cop does not know who the guy is.

    What I do have a problem with is, it scared the pee out of the cop, who arrested homeowner and charged him with aggravated assault on a police officer which is a felony. Since its a felony, the place where the guy has worked for 22 years has a policy that anyone CHARGED with a felony is automaticaly fired...this place happens to be a bank where said employee has a stellar record. Since its a weapon related crime his permit was revoked immediatley.

    He hired a laywer, one that has a prior reputation for eating the local poice dept, over stupid events just like this. He will win. It will cost him thousands of dollars, it will cost the city thousands of dollars and the guy will lose thousands of dollars in lost wages that he'll probably get back...in a year or two. Whats he gonna do in the mean time ? Hows he gonna pay his bills ? Ya see, the police dont care. The bank dont care. Whats the good in it ? Where is common sense here ? Even if the city decides to drop the charges, how much is it gonna cost a citizen because some cop didnt use common sense ? How long will it take to catch up on hs bills ? What about his reputation?

    Forgive me for ranting and raving, but this hearing about kind of crap really trips my trigger.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  12. #56
    Member Array huntermedic's Avatar
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    Here's my 2 cents, because I am kind of in the same situation.

    My current f/t is security for Uncle Sam in a SSA field office. There is a sign on the front door in ref to carrying on Fed Prop-ILLEGAL!!! As we were told in training-Call the Fed Protective Service or local PD. Local PD is next door. However, I called them once for a threat enroute to my office. They took approx 1 hr to send an officer. (I understand about other calls-BTDT, I used to work the street )

    I do not carry a sidearm (SSA regs -"Guns are bad! Heaven forbid that we have armed security" ) I am armed with an ASP expandable and pepper foam. ( NO they do not work that well against a gun, but again, GUNS ARE BAD!)

    The people that work in the office have asked me what I would do in that instance. (My desk is directly infront of a glass door, so guess who the 1st target is ). I have told them that my job is to protect them from such people, even if I have to make the Ultimate sacrifice. All that I have asked of them is that at least one person runs to the PD for help.

  13. #57
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    Great thread posts. Of course, we need to have decency and common sense when we interact with fellow citizens in any manner. But how can we know to "do the right thing?" What is our reference from which we can weigh good and bad? Ultimately a subjective decision applied to individual circumstance, it must have a foundation based upon the thoughts expressed by our country's founding fathers and our spiritual and moral texts. Although theocracy and facism have led sects and nations to destruction, it is quite a consolation that many around the world see our constitutional republic as the best hope for humanity, even with some of its flaws.

    We, as citizens, are responsible for passing that knowledge torch on to both our children and other citizens who have not felt its searing truth. If a good citizen makes an honest mistake, we ought to come to his aid in correcting it, not castigate him and incur the wrath of those above and below us.
    Liberty, Property, or Death - Jonathan Gardner's powder horn inscription 1776

    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
    -Virgil, Aeneid, vi, 95

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