What is the Purpose of Using A Mini-Red Dot Sight On a Pistol: Combat? - Page 4

What is the Purpose of Using A Mini-Red Dot Sight On a Pistol: Combat?

This is a discussion on What is the Purpose of Using A Mini-Red Dot Sight On a Pistol: Combat? within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; it is not quite as intuitive as some people on here are making it out to be. it makes you faster, kind of, and more ...

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Thread: What is the Purpose of Using A Mini-Red Dot Sight On a Pistol: Combat?

  1. #46
    Member Array Damon1976's Avatar
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    it is not quite as intuitive as some people on here are making it out to be. it makes you faster, kind of, and more accurate at longer distance shots. but it also takes a good bit of training to get use to it. i can say in some cases and applications i am faster with a good set of dawson precision fiber optics.
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  2. #47
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Damon,
    I would say its fair to equate the training curve w the dot to that of irons, maybe? In other words, if one spends as much time training w/ the dot as one did to achieve proficiency w irons, I'd say the learning or training to success time ought to be the same.
    Which brings up a curious question: If I were to take someone who has never fired a gun before, and start thier training w/ the dot, and then irons, would that student have a longer or shorter curve than one who learned irons first, then the dot?

    What say you?

    dan

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    "In addition to JD's excellent reply, one of the things to bear in mind with a red dot on a pistol is that, if the pistol gets dropped in dirt or mud, the glass can get obscured. This not only prevents your use of the red dot, but it also prevents your use of your back-up iron sights. How likely that is, I'll leave up to you to decide, but it is something to consider."-10thmtn

    hmmmm....something to ponder. I would think if you managed to get enough dirt or mud on your pistol as to totally obscure the rmr, then I'd tend to believe you've probably glopped up your irons as well. But I see where your coming from. I've managed, at an indoor range to get enough smoke, powder, whatever else was floating to make the rmr blurry, but could still make adequate strikes thru the blurred dot. As it lost focus, it became more transparent. I think one of my next projects will be to see how much crap it takes to blot out the screen altogether, then how difficult it is to clear just enought to see thru. I'll call it the "10th Drill" in honour of 10thmtn for posing such a thought provoking scenario.

    dan
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  4. #49
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Wow! A drill named after little ol' me! I feel honored.

    Mud can be rather easily flung or shaken off a rear sight. Off glass? Not so much. Then there is the contaminant no one wants to talk about - blood. Blood is no issue on iron sights. On glass? Problem.

    I'd be interested in your results - but don't feel obligated to bleed on your RMR!
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    It'll be a minor cut, promise.
    But, I am curious as to how impaired the sight system would be after being muddied, then flung about. Even if the mud obstructed the dot's projection area, how hard is it to clear enough glass to use the irons or even the TSOD? I'd like to email/call/contact Trijicon and ask them if the glass is treated w/ any sort of a protective coat. Kinda like RainX. I suppose a lot will depend on the type of mud, whether thick or thin, as to a sharp flinging getting it off the glass. Interesting.

    As to hemo-obstruction, bro, all bets are off. If I'm leakin' so bad its pooling in my rmr, I truly don't know that I wouldn't be above cleaning it out with my tongue to get it back in the fight (and at least 'break even'-you know what I mean).

    All things have pros and cons. I believe each of us have a conception of what we have determined to be the best route for US. Not all systems will be recieved by all parties. I have found the dot to be, well, a true game changer and a system for which I will accept the negatives in favor of what I believe to be the positves. Others may not. 'sall good by me. Guys that have posted concerns are greatly appreciated, as some have brought up issues I hadn't fully explored. I'm hoping my time and experience with the dot may help those who are researching it make a decision, either for or agin it. I just hope I've contributed.

    dan
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  6. #51
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    Talking

    I hope its OK to post a link here to a gentleman using an RMR equipped pistol (g34). He seems to do 'ok' ;). There are some 'iffy' words in the responses, but the vid is really good. If the mods pull it, my apologies.


    RMR Glock at Ironman 3 Gun 2011 - YouTube

    dan

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    Cool to see so many folks with mini red dot equipped pistols here. I recently transistioned from carrying a 1911 on duty to a Trijicon RMR02 equipped FNP-45 Tactical. I'm impressed enough with the "red dot on a pistol" concept that after trying the FNP-T I also purchased a one-off RMR equipped FNS-9 from One Source Tactical. While none of this makes me an expert I think I might be able to contribute to the discussion and answer some questions.

    First, IMO, the biggest difference with a MRDS (Mini-Red-Dot-Sight) on a pistol is that your entire sight picture changes. As mentioned early on in the thread you're only dealing with one focal plane (dot and target) with the MRDS vs three (rear sight, front sight, target) with conventional iron sights. What this means for the shooter is that instead of lining up the sights on the target then focusing on the front sight, which leaves your target blurry, with the red dot you focus on your target and superimpose the dot on the target, both the dot and the target are in perfect focus. From either the defense or offensive perspective, this is a huge advantage as you maintain a clear view of your target at all times. Another thing about sight picture and the MRDS is that, for those of us with less than perfect vision, it eliminates the issues that come with corrective lenses. I've been wearing progressive bifocals for a few years now and they make aquiring a proper sight picture with iron sights more difficult because I have to tip my head back to find the "sweet spot" in my glasses to focus on the front sight, taking even more from my view of the target. When using the dot I can look through the upper area of my lenses as I normally view things and both the dot and the target are in focus. Having the red dot on my sidearm also gives me a similar sight picture to what I have with my patrol rifle and I like that consistency - two weapon platforms, one sighting system.

    Of course, it's not all wine and roses. As Damon brought up, it does require training/practice to be able to utilize an MRDS on a pistol to it's full advantage. You are working against your iron sighting habits, all those years of aquiring the sights and focusing on the front sight are tough to undo. I found a tendency to want to look at my sights rather than the dot, it took a while (lots of draws and dry fire practice) to trust and use the dot first. That being said, if your pistol is properly equipped with suppressor sights they do help with aquiring the dot faster if the dot is cowitnessed with the sights. Line up the sights and the dot appears on the target. After a while your presentation changes enough that you start finding the sight first and that speeds things up. Another thing that you will notice immediately is that the dot makes any instability in your stance and hold very obvious because any movement causes the dot to move on the target, you don't get the same effect with iron sights because you're focused on the sight, not the target.

    Of course, if you've never learned any other way then learning to shoot accurately with the dot is much faster than learning with iron sights. My wife has issues with proper sight picture, I don't know exactly what the problem is because she doesn't have the shooting knowledge base to explain it to me in terms I can relate to. I had her shooting the FNS-9 with only the dot (no cowitnessed sights) and told her to just put the dot on the X and squeeze the trigger. Bam!, bullseye at 10yds, had her do it again and the second shot was practically through the same hole as the first and she was able to do that consistently until the gun was empty, 18rds. She was elated, shooting had always been a chore for her and the RMR allowed her to concentrate on the target and trigger pull instead of trying to work out the iron sight equation.

    The size of the sight, weight, holsters, and concealed carry are not the issues a lot of people think. Yes, the sight adds to the height of the gun but doesn't change the concealablity of it because your adding to the top of the slide rather than the butt end so it doesn't stick out anywhere. The weight of these things is neglible and mounting one does not affect the balance or function of a pistol. In fact, my FNP-T, with the RMR mounted and loaded with 16rds of 230gr ammo actually weighs 1.5oz LESS than my old duty pistol, a Springfield 1911, loaded with 9rds of the same ammo. Holsters need only be cut low enough in the front to accomodate the sight, some holster makers like Blade-tech are really going out of their way to accomodate the growing trend of red dot equipped handguns and will make the holsters specifically to work with one. My duty holster is a Blade-tech that is relieved to fit the sight, they are developing one now that will have a molded in sight cover to protect it, they already make these for Glocks and they're sold through OST. Any holster maker should be able to modify their designs to fit an RMR equipped pistol as long as it doesn't interfere with any retention devices.

    Sorry for being so long winded. I've been working with these things for a few months now and these are some of my observations. I've become much more comfortable with the sights and, while I'm still not as fast as with my 1911s overall, my accuracy has improved, especially beyond 15yds. Also, my shooting has become more deliberate, the dot makes me more aware of where my bullet is going so I'm looking for a more settled sight picture than I did with iron sights. I hope this all helps, I've added pics of my guns below.


    My FNP-45 Tactical and FNS-9, both w/Trijicon RMR02 optics-


    This is what you see when focused on your target, everything is clear and the dot is sharp-


    This what you see when focused on the front sight, everything but the sight is blurry-


    FNP-T in Blade-Tech WRS duty holster-


    FNS-9 in a TSD/Balde-Tech IWB with MRDS hood-



    And in a low cut Don Hume leather holster-
    “Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”

  8. #53
    Member Array Spirit4earth's Avatar
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    Are these sights easy on/easy off, and do you have to remove the rear sight?

  9. #54
    Member Array Longbow's Avatar
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    Because Gabe thinks it's cool that's why.
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  10. #55
    Senior Member Array WC145's Avatar
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    The sights are held on with two screws, you do not have to remove the iron sights to put ghe RMR on or take it off.
    “Never give in. Never give in. Never, never, never, never—in nothing, great or small, large or petty—never give in, except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force. Never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy.”

  11. #56
    Member Array thephanatik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    "In addition to JD's excellent reply, one of the things to bear in mind with a red dot on a pistol is that, if the pistol gets dropped in dirt or mud, the glass can get obscured. This not only prevents your use of the red dot, but it also prevents your use of your back-up iron sights. How likely that is, I'll leave up to you to decide, but it is something to consider."-10thmtn

    hmmmm....something to ponder. I would think if you managed to get enough dirt or mud on your pistol as to totally obscure the rmr, then I'd tend to believe you've probably glopped up your irons as well. But I see where your coming from. I've managed, at an indoor range to get enough smoke, powder, whatever else was floating to make the rmr blurry, but could still make adequate strikes thru the blurred dot. As it lost focus, it became more transparent. I think one of my next projects will be to see how much crap it takes to blot out the screen altogether, then how difficult it is to clear just enought to see thru. I'll call it the "10th Drill" in honour of 10thmtn for posing such a thought provoking scenario.

    dan

    There's an obvious solution for mounting sights so the glass doesn't obscure them if it gets dirty.

    I present to you, gangsta sights:

    sideways_gun_sight.jpg
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  12. #57
    Member Array Damon1976's Avatar
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    i think for the person who never shot it would be perfect. and you are absolutely right. training is EVERYTHING. the conflict i had was it would not be on all my guns. so i would imagine some sort of transition or readjustment period when switching between guns. for me what happened was i found myself searching for the dot when i would bring the gun up. as oppose to using my regular sights it was much more intuitive and there for much faster.

    i think the guys who could really answer this question are the ipsc/uspsa guys who use them religiously to compete with.

  13. #58
    Member Array Damon1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    "In addition to JD's excellent reply, one of the things to bear in mind with a red dot on a pistol is that, if the pistol gets dropped in dirt or mud, the glass can get obscured. This not only prevents your use of the red dot, but it also prevents your use of your back-up iron sights. How likely that is, I'll leave up to you to decide, but it is something to consider."-10thmtn

    hmmmm....something to ponder. I would think if you managed to get enough dirt or mud on your pistol as to totally obscure the rmr, then I'd tend to believe you've probably glopped up your irons as well. But I see where your coming from. I've managed, at an indoor range to get enough smoke, powder, whatever else was floating to make the rmr blurry, but could still make adequate strikes thru the blurred dot. As it lost focus, it became more transparent. I think one of my next projects will be to see how much crap it takes to blot out the screen altogether, then how difficult it is to clear just enought to see thru. I'll call it the "10th Drill" in honour of 10thmtn for posing such a thought provoking scenario.

    dan

    the 1 difference i could see with a muddied up rmr vs iron sights is that the covered rmr would make it much harder to point shoot if needed.

  14. #59
    Member Array Simonsay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    If I were to take someone who has never fired a gun before, and start thier training w/ the dot, and then irons, would that student have a longer or shorter curve than one who learned irons first, then the dot?

    What say you?

    dan
    Dot first is quicker because it provides better feedback and engrains finding the target. I dont have numbers but I'll bet a paycheck if someone wants to test it.


    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post

    hmmmm....something to ponder. I would think if you managed to get enough dirt or mud on your pistol as to totally obscure the rmr, then I'd tend to believe you've probably glopped up your irons as well.

    dan
    If you have both eyes open and the dot is visible, the dot will superimpose over the target even though the target is obscured for the dominant eye. Put some tape over the target side of the lens to see how well it works.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array jdsumner's Avatar
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    "i think for the person who never shot it would be perfect. and you are absolutely right. training is EVERYTHING. the conflict i had was it would not be on all my guns. so i would imagine some sort of transition or readjustment period when switching between guns. for me what happened was i found myself searching for the dot when i would bring the gun up. as oppose to using my regular sights it was much more intuitive and there for much faster.

    i think the guys who could really answer this question are the ipsc/uspsa guys who use them religiously to compete with.

    the 1 difference i could see with a muddied up rmr vs iron sights is that the covered rmr would make it much harder to point shoot if needed"--Damon1976

    D,
    Ok, I got what you're saying, now. One might end up doing what we used to call the "Doctor Shuffle", bobbing the head up and down while trying to transition from the autopilot head position looking down the plain of irons and then up to the optic. We called it that cuz back 20yrs ago when I shot IPSC, doctor optics were all the rage. However, the training or lack there of became obvious when a shooter drew his pistol, recently returned from a custom shop and now adorned with the latest doctor optic, and the bobble head doll dance began. Yes, the training is the factor. And I had not taken into account the 'multiple gun' factor. I try to carry the same gun. Realizing there are situations and times this won't be done, but I'm pretty good now about carrying the one pistol all the time. So we'll see how my training and adaptation go. I'll try to report on range trips, a training class I have coming up in Sept and maybe one sooner, if funds allow. I think any of the members here who know me will verify that I will report the negatives as well as positives.

    As to mud, blood, beer etc obstructing the lens, you got me. I got nuthin'. That tho, is one of those potentials that I'm willing to trade off for in the return of having the dot the rest of the time. Its a trade-off I'll take. But a very valid point, none the less, thank you and 10mtn for bringing it to my attention. See? Even I admit it ain't all lollipops and cotton candy.

    dan

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