Need help on appeal...

Need help on appeal...

This is a discussion on Need help on appeal... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hey all, I was recently denied a CCW permit in Orange County, CA because I was not able to show enough Good Cause. I'm putting ...

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Thread: Need help on appeal...

  1. #1
    Member Array CalCCW03's Avatar
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    Need help on appeal...

    Hey all,

    I was recently denied a CCW permit in Orange County, CA because I was not able to show enough Good Cause. I'm putting together my appeal letter and supporting documentation for my appeal. I am having a tough time finding specifics on violent crimes against Realtors in Orange County, for that matter much of anywhere. It seems that either it's not documented very well or I am just not looking in the right places. Any help from you fine folks would be appreciated.

    Thanks in advance,


    Chris


  2. #2
    Member Array Maverick7340's Avatar
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    Just had a post on this at another forum. This was posted there.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3273.html

  3. #3
    Member Array CalCCW03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick7340 View Post
    Just had a post on this at another forum. This was posted there.

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3273.html
    I did see that article and will be using it. I'm hoping I can find some info that will show a need in OC. Thanks very much.

  4. #4
    Member Array CraigJS's Avatar
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    Here's something here, I found it doing a Google search under,"crime against realtors".

    http://www.realtor.org/rmomag.NSF/pa...4?OpenDocument

    There maybe more info under that search. That was my first try, hope it helps..
    Be safe.

  5. #5
    Member Array CalCCW03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigJS View Post
    Here's something here, I found it doing a Google search under,"crime against realtors".

    http://www.realtor.org/rmomag.NSF/pa...4?OpenDocument

    There maybe more info under that search. That was my first try, hope it helps..
    Be safe.
    Thanks Craig, much appreciated.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array pogo2's Avatar
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    You can find dozens of articles using Google

    I ran a quick Google search on the subject "realtor attacks" and here are three useful articles on realtor safety:

    Florida Realtor Attacked

    Georgia Realtors Attacked

    Realtor dangers in "open houses"

    The last article states (regarding open houses): "Some, she says, are worried about letting complete strangers roam freely through their house, with access to electronics, jewelry, prescription drugs and personal information.

    Others just don't want their neighbors and a host of other so-called "looky-loos" wasting their time just for a look at their décor.

    And many agents won't do them for security reasons, as a number of their fellow Realtors have been attacked and some even killed, as they sat in an empty house alone and vulnerable."

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    You could get someone to beat you up...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  8. #8
    Member Array Sh00ter's Avatar
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    I am a Realtor. The text below is from the opening page that's currently on our MLS system. Maybe it will give you a little ammo. This type of thing happens quite often.



    "One of our members was called about listing a piece of property. He was led to believe it was in the ______ area. The ‘seller’ gave a cell phone number and asked to be picked up at an apartment on ______ Drive. The name given was Donna.



    The agent went to the address and a black male met him in the parking lot. The agent never went to the apartment number in question so that may have been a bogus piece of information.



    The seller said the house was actually in ______. During the ride to ______ the seller asked the agent to buy him a cell phone. The agent declined. The seller asked him for $100 so he could buy his own cell phone. The agent declined. The agent stopped at a Texaco station in ______ and called the police. They never answered. He called his broker who also called the ______ Police. They never answered. They tried the Highway Patrol and it never rang through or was answered. 911 also did not work.



    The seller obviously got nervous at the agent being inside the Texaco and ran and jumped into a truck with 4 other men and left the area.



    The frightening thing is that no police were available and this agent could have gotten no help if the situation had turned nasty. Please be very careful out there. There is every possibility that the men in the truck at the Texaco were part of this but we’ll never know.



    If you have had a similar experience, please let us know. We must keep each other informed of what is happening out there to protect each other.

    UPDATE:

    This individual is calling again and asking for money, a cell phone and other items during the initial call. Please exercise EXTREME CAUTION if you are contacted by this individual."
    Rankin Arms Company
    www.rankinarms.com
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    "Life is tough...it's tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne

  9. #9
    Member Array koolguynet's Avatar
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    This one was very tragic. Good luck.
    http://www.koat.com/news/3671986/detail.html

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Have you tried to request information on realtor attacks from the Orange County Sheriff's Department? I'm not sure if they would cough it up, but you would probably be able to Freedom of Information Act the info if they didn't want to.

  11. #11
    Member Array CalCCW03's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    You could get someone to beat you up...
    Excellent idea!!! Know anyone that could do it?

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    In most towns there is a neighborhood where you might find a willing accomplice, if you first practice a few well thought out introductory phrases. Said accomplice may be induced to provide the aforementioned service without compensation.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #13
    Member Array Linda's Avatar
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    I merely googled "realtors murdered" when I wrote my article and came up with good content for this story:

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/article3273.html

    Got to love google!
    Member of the National Rifle Association's Board of Directors
    www.BuckeyeFirearms.org Buckeye Firearms Association Central OH Chair
    NRA Instructor/CCW Instructor/Realtor
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  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array LenS's Avatar
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    Find a gun-rights attorney in your area, familiar with dealing with TPTB who issue your permits. Check with your state's gun rights group if you need a lawyer referral.

    This will increase your odds of success upon appeal.

    Good luck!

  15. #15
    Member Array Fargo's Avatar
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    There are a few cases from CA I found. Here are the relevant facts. You should be able to get more details from the local papers:

    1.
    In October 2001, Ignacio Reyes made several trips to a home located on Golden West Avenue in Santa Ana, California, to assist his wife, Leticia Gonzales, a realtor, in its sale. On each occasion, a group of six or more people harassed Reyes. He claimed they prevented him from placing a lockbox on the front door of the residence.

    On the morning of October 7, Reyes and his 21-year-old son, Alejandro Osorio, met with a prospective buyer at the residence. n1 When Reyes and Osorio tried to drive away in Reyes' van, two men stood directly in front of the van and blocked its egress. Reyes stated one of the men pointed a semiautomatic pistol at him. Reyes got out of his car. The man with the gun fled. The other man, Santiago Gomez, stood firm. Reyes asked, "Why are you doing this?" Gomez responded, "If you come back here again, we will kill you, don't come back here." Gomez and Reyes engaged in an exchange of curses that prompted a fistfight. Gomez tried to run away, but Reyes pursued him and succeeded in pinning him to the ground. At his father's instruction, Osorio picked up a small stick. Reyes [*4] then directed Osorio to drop the stick and call the police.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Footnotes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    n1 Father and son testified through a Spanish language interpreter.


    - - - - - - - - - - - - End Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    Reyes noticed another group of people approximately 30 to 40 feet away from him, standing in the front yard of a nearby home. Defendant and a woman emerged from the group and approached Reyes and Gomez. While defendant held a plate of food in his hands, he told Reyes, "If you don't let him [Gomez] go, I will kill you." Reyes replied with an obscenity. Defendant turned and walked back to the group of people and entered the home. Minutes later, Osorio yelled, "Father, father, he is coming with a weapon." Reyes released his hold on Gomez and stood. He testified, "And I saw that man [defendant] pointing at me with a weapon."

    PEOPLE v. FLORES, 2005 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 4662 (California Unpublished Opinions 2005)
    2.

    One afternoon in the summer of 2001, a neighbor of defendant's tried to engage defendant in conversation, but defendant just stared at the neighbor. The neighbor became nervous and backed away from defendant. Defendant then returned to his truck, where he sat motionless for about five minutes. The neighbor eventually approached defendant again and asked what was wrong, but still got no response. At that point, defendant drove [*3] away.

    Later that afternoon, defendant drove past the home of the victim. Defendant was acquainted with the victim because their daughters were good friends. The victim was outside in front of his house working on a boat and saw defendant drive past. About fifteen minutes later, defendant drove back past the victim's house in the other direction and stopped near the victim's boat.

    The victim walked out to defendant's car and asked defendant how he was doing, but defendant just looked straight ahead without responding. When the victim finally asked defendant what was going on, defendant responded haltingly: "When we bought and signed with Rita, my wife said we should have bought from [the victim]." The victim was a real estate agent and thought defendant was trying to apologize for using another agent to buy a house a few years before, so the victim responded that the important thing was that defendant was happy with his purchase. The victim then mentioned that defendant's daughter had just visited the night before. Defendant responded, again in a halting manner: "She didn't come and see me." At that point, a car approached from behind and was unable to pass due to the narrow road, [*4] so defendant drove away. With defendant gone, the victim returned to his work and began putting his tools away in the garage.

    Defendant returned sometime later, parked his car in the victim's driveway, and walked into the victim's garage. The victim asked defendant how he was doing and defendant again failed to respond. The victim then asked defendant what was going on and defendant still failed to respond. When the victim subsequently crouched down to pick up a basket of left-over screws that he needed for another project, defendant grabbed a hammer and struck the victim in the back of the head. While defendant continued to strike at the victim with the hammer, the victim grabbed defendant in a bear-hug, knocked defendant to the ground, and tried to pull the hammer away. Defendant and the victim ended up on their feet wrestling with the hammer. The victim pulled defendant out of the garage and into the driveway, where a neighbor saw them and responded to the victim's cries for help. The neighbor's presence distracted defendant, allowing the victim to pull the hammer away. After they had separated, defendant returned to his truck and drove away as if nothing had happened. The victim [*5] described defendant as expressionless or zombie-like throughout the encounter, and testified that during the struggle for the hammer, defendant kept repeating: "Tell me what's going on or I'11 kill you."

    Sheriff's deputies responded to the scene, obtained defendant's name and address, and went to his house to confront him. When the deputies arrived, defendant had already changed his clothes and cleaned himself up. Defendant spontaneously stated that he thought the victim was threatening him and he "just lost it." Defendant was cooperative, but seemed distracted and spoke very slowly.

    Defendant was charged with attempted murder ( §§ 664/187) and aggravated assault ( § 245, subd. (a)(1)), both with allegations of inflicting great bodily injury on a person 70 years of age or older ( § 12022.7, subd. (c)) and use of a deadly or dangerous weapon ( § 12022, subd. (b)(1)). Defendant's attorney consulted with a clinical psychologist and requested a formal competency evaluation. After the evaluations were completed, the court found defendant competent to stand trial.

    During trial, several character witnesses testified on defendant's behalf that defendant was quiet, cordial, respectful, [*6] calm, and fair-tempered. A neighbor indicated that defendant often spoke with the neighbor's wife, but he would always become silent when the neighbor came around. The neighbor claimed that defendant always spoke slowly with long pauses between words.

    Defendant also offered the testimony of the clinical psychologist who originally evaluated him. She testified that although defendant was competent to stand trial and did not qualify for an insanity defense, he did suffer from a schizotypal personality disorder. She described this disorder as a moderate inability to perceive reality that appears as slightly odd behavior and causes impairments in interpersonal relationships, feelings, and thought. She testified that this disorder had severely impaired defendant's social relations, leaving him without friends and completely unable to interact with people. She noted that in this case, defendant apparently believed that the victim said that he was about to put another nail in the coffin, which defendant interpreted as a threat.

    Finally, defendant testified and essentially confirmed the sequence of events. Defendant claimed that he stopped to talk with the victim about listing his house [*7] for sale and wanted to apologize for originally purchasing the house through another realtor, but became confused and had trouble explaining himself. When defendant returned the second time and entered the victim's garage, he intended to ask the victim about listing the house again. Defendant claimed that during a conversation about listing the house, the victim mentioned that he was just working on a coffin, putting the last nails in, and needed to find a screw. When the victim subsequently crouched down to pick something up, defendant became afraid that the comment about putting the last nails in a coffin was a threat directed at him and that the victim was reaching down to get a weapon. Defendant grabbed a hammer nearby and struck just as the victim started to stand up.

    Defendant did not remember much after that. Defendant admitted that he repeatedly asked the victim to tell him what was going on, but denied that he ever said: "I'11 kill you." When the victim began yelling that defendant was trying to kill him, defendant told the victim "If you die, I die," because he believed his life would be over if the victim died. Defendant claimed that he tried calm the victim, but finally [*8] let go of the hammer and left when he saw the neighbor coming over. Defendant conceded that he may have misunderstood the victim, but denied that he ever intended to kill the victim.

    The jury was instructed on imperfect self-defense and attempted voluntary manslaughter as a lesser included offense to attempted murder. The jury ultimately found defendant guilty of attempted voluntary manslaughter and aggravated assault, and found the enhancement allegations to be true. Defendant was sentenced to the middle term of three years for the manslaughter conviction, with an additional six years for the enhancements to be served consecutively. The same sentence was imposed for the aggravated assault count, but stayed pursuant to section 654.

    PEOPLE v. WEST, 2003 Cal. App. Unpub. LEXIS 6758 (California Unpublished Opinions 2003)
    3.

    At approximately 11:30 on the morning of November 8, 1994, Donna H. received a telephone call at her real estate office about a vacant house she had listed for sale in Bakersfield. The caller, a man, said he recently had been transferred to the area and had been referred to her by a coworker named Smith. Donna, who had a client by that name, agreed to meet the man and his wife at the house at 12:15 p.m.

    Donna arrived a little early. There was no other car at the house but she noticed a green [***3] pickup parked nearby which she took to be a gardener's truck. She unlocked the front door and went into the house, leaving her purse, briefcase and other items in her car. n2 As she opened the blinds in the dining area, she heard a noise behind her. She turned and found Light standing about five feet away. He wore dark wraparound sunglasses and was holding a dowel, similar to a closet pole, in his two hands in front of him. He said: "get down on the floor, get down on the floor or you'll get hurt, get down on the floor and you won't get hurt." His voice sounded like the person who had phoned earlier.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Footnotes - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


    n2
    Donna gained entry with a key stored in a "lock box" to which she and other real estate agents had keys. The house was empty and all the doors ordinarily would have been locked. However, Theresa Clark, who did not have a lock box key, testified she stopped to look at the house earlier the same day; she was able to get in by going through a side gate, then through a door from the yard into the garage, and finally through a door from the garage into the house. The gate and the two doors were all unlocked.


    - - - - - - - - - - - - End Footnotes- - - - - - - - - - - - - - [***4]

    Donna ran through the family room toward the kitchen but there she caught sight of a second person standing between her and the only other exit. [*882] She did not see the person's face, only his torso. She turned and headed back down the hallway toward the entry but Light grabbed her by the arm and pulled her into the kitchen. There he and the other man forced her to the ground both with their hands and with something on her back she assumed was the "stick." Light ordered Donna to keep her face down and her eyes closed, and not to move or say anything lest she get hurt. She complied out of fear for her life.

    People v. Light, 44 Cal. App. 4th 879, 881-882 (Cal. Ct. App. 1996)
    She was then brutally raped and robbed. The rest of the court's opinion is too graphic to post.

    4.

    Charles Price (Price), the victim of the subject offenses, was a real estate agent who had been involved in a real estate transaction with defendant. A dispute arose between them over defendant's claim that Price owed him money. At about 4:45 p.m., May 2, 1984, defendant came to Price's house. When Price saw defendant, he became alarmed because defendant had repeatedly telephoned him, claiming that Price owed him money, had left a threatening message on Price's telephone answering machine, and Price had once observed defendant following him when he went to the [***3] bank. Price therefore armed himself with a gun, which he concealed in a towel, when he went to the door to speak to defendant. Price did not think the gun was visible to defendant.

    Price told defendant that he did not have any money coming to him and asked defendant to leave. Defendant did not say anything. Price decided that he was not in any danger and that he had overreacted in arming himself. Price returned to his desk and left the gun there, wrapped in the towel. Price picked up a golf club with which he had been practicing chip shots prior to defendant's arrival and returned to the door. Defendant was still standing there. Price opened the screen door and walked onto the porch. Defendant backed up. Price continued walking toward defendant, carrying the golf club down at his side. Price did not attempt to hit defendant with the club.

    Defendant did not say anything, but kept backing up until he reached his motorbike which was parked in Price's driveway. At that time, defendant [*440] pulled a gun and fired at Price. Price turned and started to run. He was hit by one or more shots and fell face down in the street in front of an oncoming car. Defendant shot [***4] Price in the back of the neck while Price was lying on the ground. Price's right arm was partially paralyzed as a result of the shooting.

    Patricia White (White) lived next door to Price. She was in her house at the time of the incident. She heard two male voices arguing, then heard three gun shots. n1 She ran to the door and saw Price lying in the street and defendant standing over him [**306] shooting. Defendant fired more than one shot while Price was on the ground.

    People v. Thompson, 183 Cal. App. 3d 437, 439-440 (Cal. Ct. App. 1986)
    hope these help


    Joe

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