Birmingham, AL, Zoo and Botanical Gardens CC

This is a discussion on Birmingham, AL, Zoo and Botanical Gardens CC within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi all. I did a search and couldn't find anything so if I missed something, please link me to another thread! I live in Jefferson ...

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Thread: Birmingham, AL, Zoo and Botanical Gardens CC

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    New Member Array Bama13's Avatar
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    Birmingham, AL, Zoo and Botanical Gardens CC

    Hi all. I did a search and couldn't find anything so if I missed something, please link me to another thread!

    I live in Jefferson County, AL, and am going to the zoo and gardens tomorrow (been both places before, but before I was 21). The Botanical Gardens website says they have a no firearms policy, but I haven't been able to find anything for the zoo. Does anyone know the zoo's policy? Also, how enforceable is the gardens' policy? Is it like any other place where they can only get me for trespassing if I refuse to leave after being asked? Any and all clarification would be appreciated. Thanks!

    Bama
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    Alabama law does not appear to address signage, that I know of. I have been to the zoo, but don't remember if they have signs or not. I believe that the only issue is that if you are discovered to have a weapon and asked to leave, you would have to, or be guilty of trespassing. But, IANAL.

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    HKR
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    I've CCed at the Zoo many times without issue. I've never noticed any signs. Like most zoo's I've visited there is little to no visible security. The employees we've interacted with are not what I would call observant, either.

    They did a major remodel which finished up last year with the opening of the "Trails of Africa" exhibit. I do not know how extensive the changes were at the entrance or if there were any.

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    Why would they ask you to leave? If you are CC'ing properly no one should even know you are......... I am from B'ham also and if there is no sign posted at a entrance of the establishment Im visiting stating no firearms allowed I dont give it a second thought.
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    Sorry to revive an old thread, but there is new information. I believe the Birmingham Zoo is posted against firearms.

    However, private-public partnerships (a private company leasing city-owned land, for example) is now considered under Alabama state law to be a "political subdivision", and therefore subject to state preemption.

    So the final answer on this, is that you can open or conceal carry at the Zoo whether or not it is posted and whether or not they have a policy or rule banning firearms.
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    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil1979 View Post
    Sorry to revive an old thread, but there is new information. I believe the Birmingham Zoo is posted against firearms.

    However, private-public partnerships (a private company leasing city-owned land, for example) is now considered under Alabama state law to be a "political subdivision", and therefore subject to state preemption.

    So the final answer on this, is that you can open or conceal carry at the Zoo whether or not it is posted and whether or not they have a policy or rule banning firearms.
    Can you please quote which law you are referencing?.

    Sara Lou
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    Member Array CeltKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zralou View Post
    Can you please quote which law you are referencing?.

    Sara Lou
    Code of Alabama

    Universal Citation :: Justia Law

    Now, obviously it's best to go read the whole section (13A-11-50 through 13A-11-85), but for the sake of brevity (you're welcome ^_^) here are the gist and some important elements:

    (6) POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. A county, incorporated city, unincorporated city, public local entity, public-private partnership, and any other public entity of a county or city commonly considered to be a political subdivision of the state.

    (c) Except as otherwise provided in Act 2013-283 or as expressly authorized by a statute of this state, the Legislature hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of regulation in this state touching in any way upon firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance, or rule promulgated or enforced by any political subdivision of this state.

    (d) The authority of a political subdivision to regulate firearms, ammunition, or firearm accessories shall not be inferred from its proprietary authority, home rule status, or any other inherent or general power.

    (e) Any existing orders, ordinances, or rules promulgated or enforced contrary to the terms of this section are null and void and any future order, ordinance, or rules shall comply with this section.

    13A-11-75
    Section 13A-11-75 - Permit to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person - Issuance; fee; revocation; release of information. :: 2013 Code of Alabama :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

    c. Except as otherwise provided by the laws of this state, a permit issued under this subdivision is valid throughout the state, and a sheriff may not place conditions or requirements on the issuance of the permit or limit its scope or applicability. <-- Read that as no more "qualified" permits with a host of restrictions thereupon. Oh, some sheriffs like ours will put them on a brochure TELLING you it's not valid in a bar, in a restaurant that serves naughty alcohol, blah-blah-blah, but unless specifically noted in this code, that's all just bluster and bollocks.

    Code of Alabama
    13A-11-61.2 (Sorry, this WILL be a bit long)

    Possession of firearms in certain places.

    (a) In addition to any other place limited or prohibited by state or federal law, a person, including a person with a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85, may not knowingly possess or carry a firearm in any of the following places without the express permission of a person or entity with authority over the premises:

    (1) Inside the building of a police, sheriff, or highway patrol station.

    (2) Inside or on the premises of a prison, jail, halfway house, community corrections facility, or other detention facility for those who have been charged with or convicted of a criminal or juvenile offense.

    (3) Inside or on the premises of a facility which provides inpatient or custodial care of those with psychiatric, mental, or emotional disorders.

    (4) Inside a courthouse, courthouse annex, a building in which a District Attorney's office is located, or a building in which a county commission or city council is currently having a regularly scheduled or specially called meeting.

    (5) Inside any facility hosting an athletic event not related to or involving firearms which is sponsored by a private or public elementary or secondary school or any private or public institution of postsecondary education, unless the person has a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85.

    (6) Inside any facility hosting a professional athletic event not related to or involving firearms, unless the person has a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85.

    (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), a person, including a person with a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85, may not, without the express permission of a person or entity with authority over the premises, knowingly possess or carry a firearm inside any building or facility to which access of unauthorized persons and prohibited articles is limited during normal hours of operation by the continuous posting of guards and the use of other security features, including, but not limited to, magnetometers, key cards, biometric screening devices, or turnstiles or other physical barriers.

    Okay, that bit there, is generally interpreted to mean, if there is not some means keeping unauthorized folks out, AND continual presence of security their little signs mean nothing except that any property owner can tell you to leave and if you don't you're guilty of trespassing. I haven't been the the B'ham zoo in ages but are there such measures at the front gate? If not, then this rule doth not apply. AND, as others have said, if it's really concealed, who's gonna know? Worst case, you stop a violent, crazed gunman and get a class C (lowest) misdemeanor charge if that ... methinks a jury would aquit. I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I've spent many, many, many, too many hours in court rooms. :D


    (c) The person or entity with authority over the premises set forth in subsections (a)(1)-(6) and subsection (b) shall place a notice at the public entrances of such premises or buildings alerting those entering that firearms are prohibited.

    (d) Except as provided in subsections (a)(5) and (a)(6), any firearm on the premises of any facility set forth in subsection (a)(1), or subsections (a)(4)-(6), or subsection (b) must be kept from ordinary observation and locked within a compartment or in the interior of the person's motor vehicle or in a compartment or container securely affixed to the motor vehicle.

    (e) A violation of subsections (a) or (d) is a Class C misdemeanor.

    (f) This section shall not prohibit any person from possessing a firearm within the person's residence or during ingress or egress thereto.

    (g) Prohibitions regarding the carrying of a firearm under this section shall not apply to law enforcement officers engaged in the lawful execution of their official duties.

    (h) Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize the carrying or possession of a firearm where prohibited by federal law.

    (Act 2013-283, p. 938, §6.)
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    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    I have read the statues, but I have to admit I missed the wording on public-private partnership, hence my initial question.
    Based on the statues wording, unless 6b is evident, they cannot ask you to leave either, as it is public, so owned by the public. They would also be breaking the law by posting signs, we are currently fighting to get the signs taken down at rest area's in Alabama for the same reason, big Luther is getting a lot of pressure to uphold the law just now.

    Sara Lou
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    Senior Member Array TIDEHSV's Avatar
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    Great post. Thanks!


    Quote Originally Posted by CeltKnight View Post
    Code of Alabama

    Universal Citation :: Justia Law

    Now, obviously it's best to go read the whole section (13A-11-50 through 13A-11-85), but for the sake of brevity (you're welcome ^_^) here are the gist and some important elements:

    (6) POLITICAL SUBDIVISION. A county, incorporated city, unincorporated city, public local entity, public-private partnership, and any other public entity of a county or city commonly considered to be a political subdivision of the state.

    (c) Except as otherwise provided in Act 2013-283 or as expressly authorized by a statute of this state, the Legislature hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of regulation in this state touching in any way upon firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance, or rule promulgated or enforced by any political subdivision of this state.

    (d) The authority of a political subdivision to regulate firearms, ammunition, or firearm accessories shall not be inferred from its proprietary authority, home rule status, or any other inherent or general power.

    (e) Any existing orders, ordinances, or rules promulgated or enforced contrary to the terms of this section are null and void and any future order, ordinance, or rules shall comply with this section.

    13A-11-75
    Section 13A-11-75 - Permit to carry pistol in vehicle or concealed on person - Issuance; fee; revocation; release of information. :: 2013 Code of Alabama :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia

    c. Except as otherwise provided by the laws of this state, a permit issued under this subdivision is valid throughout the state, and a sheriff may not place conditions or requirements on the issuance of the permit or limit its scope or applicability. <-- Read that as no more "qualified" permits with a host of restrictions thereupon. Oh, some sheriffs like ours will put them on a brochure TELLING you it's not valid in a bar, in a restaurant that serves naughty alcohol, blah-blah-blah, but unless specifically noted in this code, that's all just bluster and bollocks.

    Code of Alabama
    13A-11-61.2 (Sorry, this WILL be a bit long)

    Possession of firearms in certain places.

    (a) In addition to any other place limited or prohibited by state or federal law, a person, including a person with a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85, may not knowingly possess or carry a firearm in any of the following places without the express permission of a person or entity with authority over the premises:

    (1) Inside the building of a police, sheriff, or highway patrol station.

    (2) Inside or on the premises of a prison, jail, halfway house, community corrections facility, or other detention facility for those who have been charged with or convicted of a criminal or juvenile offense.

    (3) Inside or on the premises of a facility which provides inpatient or custodial care of those with psychiatric, mental, or emotional disorders.

    (4) Inside a courthouse, courthouse annex, a building in which a District Attorney's office is located, or a building in which a county commission or city council is currently having a regularly scheduled or specially called meeting.

    (5) Inside any facility hosting an athletic event not related to or involving firearms which is sponsored by a private or public elementary or secondary school or any private or public institution of postsecondary education, unless the person has a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85.

    (6) Inside any facility hosting a professional athletic event not related to or involving firearms, unless the person has a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85.

    (b) Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a), a person, including a person with a permit issued under Section 13A-11-75(a)(1) or recognized under Section 13A-11-85, may not, without the express permission of a person or entity with authority over the premises, knowingly possess or carry a firearm inside any building or facility to which access of unauthorized persons and prohibited articles is limited during normal hours of operation by the continuous posting of guards and the use of other security features, including, but not limited to, magnetometers, key cards, biometric screening devices, or turnstiles or other physical barriers.

    Okay, that bit there, is generally interpreted to mean, if there is not some means keeping unauthorized folks out, AND continual presence of security their little signs mean nothing except that any property owner can tell you to leave and if you don't you're guilty of trespassing. I haven't been the the B'ham zoo in ages but are there such measures at the front gate? If not, then this rule doth not apply. AND, as others have said, if it's really concealed, who's gonna know? Worst case, you stop a violent, crazed gunman and get a class C (lowest) misdemeanor charge if that ... methinks a jury would aquit. I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but I've spent many, many, many, too many hours in court rooms. :D


    (c) The person or entity with authority over the premises set forth in subsections (a)(1)-(6) and subsection (b) shall place a notice at the public entrances of such premises or buildings alerting those entering that firearms are prohibited.

    (d) Except as provided in subsections (a)(5) and (a)(6), any firearm on the premises of any facility set forth in subsection (a)(1), or subsections (a)(4)-(6), or subsection (b) must be kept from ordinary observation and locked within a compartment or in the interior of the person's motor vehicle or in a compartment or container securely affixed to the motor vehicle.

    (e) A violation of subsections (a) or (d) is a Class C misdemeanor.

    (f) This section shall not prohibit any person from possessing a firearm within the person's residence or during ingress or egress thereto.

    (g) Prohibitions regarding the carrying of a firearm under this section shall not apply to law enforcement officers engaged in the lawful execution of their official duties.

    (h) Nothing in this section shall be construed to authorize the carrying or possession of a firearm where prohibited by federal law.

    (Act 2013-283, p. 938, §6.)
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    Member Array CeltKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zralou View Post
    I have read the statues, but I have to admit I missed the wording on public-private partnership, hence my initial question.
    Based on the statues wording, unless 6b is evident, they cannot ask you to leave either, as it is public, so owned by the public. They would also be breaking the law by posting signs, we are currently fighting to get the signs taken down at rest area's in Alabama for the same reason, big Luther is getting a lot of pressure to uphold the law just now.

    Sara Lou
    Actually the law (when I say "the law" in this instance, I mean Common Law and enough case law to bore you into a Rumpelstiltskin-like nap) that someone in control of property (be it THEIR property or property they are merely managing or for which they are responsible) can tell you to leave and can do so pretty much because they feel like it. Any business can refuse service to anyone for any reason (stated or not). Oh, there can be a big hullabaloo later and picket signs and law suits and what not, but at the time someone in control of property tells someone not in control of said property to leave, that person must either leave or they have committed Criminal Trespassing. If they mouth off and make a scene they also commit the offense of Disorderly Conduct. It gets worse and worse from there.

    The signs saying you can't carry a weapon into, say a zoo or a movie theater or some such (assuming they don't fall under 6(b) ) are not "illegal" they simply do not carry any force of law other than, perhaps to justify a business owner/manager/employee/anyone with the authority to do so telling someone else to leave. Posting the sign does not make carrying a weapon on the premises illegal. Just think of it as a property owner stating the rules for being on their property.

    If you can read the entire section (brew a pot of coffee first) it'll make a bit more sense. I've read leagalease for so long it actually sounds pretty clear to me ... probably a sure indicator of my twisted mind, I suppose. :p

    If you can get your hands on an Alabama Criminal Code book with Commentaries (look for at least a 2013 version, preferable the 2014 and then this year's when it comes out) you can often find notations as to case law and ex parte court decisions that affect the way a law is actually viewed in court. This is especially valuable when looking up state knife laws (essentially if it's not a concealed Bowie knife, T-E-C-H-N-I-C-A-L-L-Y you're okay, BUT ... yeah, S'like that. Check your local library as they usually have a copy of law book in their reference section. If they don't have an up-to-date book, they will likely order one if interest is high enough. If you're friendly with any of your local constabulary, ask to read THEIR copy with Commentaries (assuming they have one on hand).

    As any other legal point, this can sometimes leave more questions than answers, but our legislature actually got pretty clear (PRETTY clear) with this and did so rather quickly, as I understand it. Big +1 for the state of Alabama as is that we now honor permits from ANY state (wish they all honored ours, eh?). --- Anyway I hope I at least pointed y'all in the right direction and helped some.

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    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    I understand a business being able to refuse service. But i'm talking about 'public owned' state property such as parks, etc. where the posting of signs or any form of regulation is reserved by the state, it doesn't matter who is in charge, they are to all intent and purpose, a political sub-division and cannot regulate. Hence the current fight to have the signs removed from interstate rest area's in Alabama, which Mr Big Luther has agreed are illegal.

    Sara Lou
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    Member Array TVille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zralou View Post
    I understand a business being able to refuse service. But i'm talking about 'public owned' state property such as parks, etc. where the posting of signs or any form of regulation is reserved by the state, it doesn't matter who is in charge, they are to all intent and purpose, a political sub-division and cannot regulate. Hence the current fight to have the signs removed from interstate rest area's in Alabama, which Mr Big Luther has agreed are illegal.

    Sara Lou
    The signs are not illegal. It would only be illegal if they were enforced - that is you were asked to leave the rest area or park. Although I agree with the BC effort to get them removed. They should not be there.

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    Member Array CeltKnight's Avatar
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    Agreed, TVille.

    Zralou, the sticking point I believe in my misunderstanding of your post was simply semantics. Posting signs does not "break the law" and them being there are not "illegal" (i.e. breaking the law), but rather they simply carry no force of law as they are unenforceable. Mr. Strange either mispoke, or simply used a colloquial expression for either brevity or to add weight to his argument (he is a lawyer, after all, LOL). As TVille stated, enforcing those signs WOULD be illegal. Posting them just wastes money and causes confusion.

    Having said THAT, park attendants can, in fact, tell a visitor to leave. Yes, WE own the property, we "free" citizens, but it is MANAGED by the state and order is kept by the state (goes back to common law) so with that comes the authority to tell us to leave. Vast difference between "public owned" and "private" property rights. The state, except within fairly narrow guidelines cannot tell you or others to leave private property. They can, however tell us to leave PUBLIC property. Again, semantics, blah-blah-blah. Please do not think for one moment I approve of those silly signs or, in fact, any gun laws. Alabama is rapidly becoming one of the most 2nd Amendment friendly states (soon as we can take a little more power away from the sheriffs and make them understand that a citizen seeking to exercise their RIGHT should never be regarded as a source of revenue). We need to keep up the push and good folks like you keeping the coals under our lawmakers' feet hot is what will make even better changes happen.
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    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
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    My semantics are, if a 'public owned' area posts a no-gun sign, then they are in fact legislating on a gun being allowed on the property, which after 2013 it was decreed the state had full preemption and no political sub-division could regulate in any way on firearms, whether or not the sign has any force of law, under state law, the sign is in violation of SB286 and can be subject to an action in circuit court.

    (c) Except as otherwise provided in this section or as otherwise authorized by law, the Legislature hereby occupies and preempts the entire field of regulation in this state touching in any way upon firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories to the complete exclusion of any order, ordinance, or rule promulgated or enforced by any political subdivision of this state.

    (d) The authority of a political subdivision to regulate firearms, ammunition, or firearm accessories shall not be inferred from its proprietary authority, home rule status, or any other inherent or general power.

    (e) Any existing or future orders, ordinances, or rules promulgated or enforced contrary to the terms of this section are null and void.

    (f)(1) A person adversely affected by any order, ordinance, or rule promulgated in violation of this section may file a petition with the Attorney General requesting that he or she bring an action in circuit court for declarative and injunctive relief. The petition must be signed under oath and under penalty of perjury and must include specific details regarding the alleged violations.
    Sara Lou
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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    The Birmingham Zoo sucks. This year they have three new exhibits. 1. House cats of Montgomery, 2. Goats of LA (lower Alabama) and 3. Chapter 13.
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