Gun vs. Knife Follow Up with Video

[Rob Longenecker]

My previous post about guns vs. knives created a flood of strong opinions and great information. That was great.

Now there's a must-see video that really illustrates what a guy with a knife can do against a guy with a pistol.

Here's a follow up post that points to gotta-read articles and to the very sobering video itself. http://tinyurl.com/pfjft

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[P95Carry]

I didn't go to the vid Rob because I am certain I have seen it. IIRC a female cop and male cop are featured.

What struck me most was that the cops took all the time needed to ''present'' in the traditional fashion - 2 hand grip and firm base. By that time the knife guy had already probably disabled them.

My best time for first useful shot - from retention after draw - is 1.1 secs - so judging by that the extra time needed to make the ''classic'' presentation would be way excessive.

Plus too - even if a coupla hits real quick - it will be unlikely to either stop the charge or put the bad guy down quick enough to avoid some knife wounds. This is a situation where movement is probably totally mandated - whereas the cops just stood ground.

Very vivid display of how dangerous a blade could be.

[Rob Longenecker]

I didn't go to the vid Rob because I am certain I have seen it. IIRC a female cop and male cop are featured.

What struck me most was that the cops took all the time needed to ''present'' in the traditional fashion - 2 hand grip and firm base. By that time the knife guy had already probably disabled them.

My best time for first useful shot - from retention after draw - is 1.1 secs - so judging by that the extra time needed to make the ''classic'' presentation would be way excessive.

Plus too - even if a coupla hits real quick - it will be unlikely to either stop the charge or put the bad guy down quick enough to avoid some knife wounds. This is a situation where movement is probably totally mandated - whereas the cops just stood ground.

Very vivid display of how dangerous a blade could be.

Well said. I certainly have a new respect for people with knives.

[Yddnac]

i've practiced my draw and it's right at around 1.5 seconds, by 2 seconds i'll have two rounds out.

It might sound weird, but if i were attacked by a knifeman i'd fall back and defend myself with my legs... your arms aren't big enough or fast enough to defend your vital areas, taking the cat-like defensive posture seems like the best way to continue to deliver some shots. Maybe this is a bad idea, but you won't gain any significant time by backing up, turning around would be suicide, and standing your ground is a good way to get your abdomen or heart cut.

[KenpoTex]

It might sound weird, but if i were attacked by a knifeman i'd fall back and defend myself with my legs... your arms aren't big enough or fast enough to defend your vital areas, taking the cat-like defensive posture seems like the best way to continue to deliver some shots.

There are a couple of problems with moving straight back. One is that the attacker can move foreward faster than you can move back. Two is that since you're probably focused on the threat (and well you should be) you can't see where you're going and are very likely to trip. Or, when he crashes into you, you're going to fall to the ground because your weight was shifted back.

Maybe this is a bad idea, but you won't gain any significant time by backing up, turning around would be suicide, and standing your ground is a good way to get your abdomen or heart cut.

You're right on with these two points. IMO, the best option (if it's available) is to move laterally. This accomplishes a few things: one, it allows you some idea of where you're going. Two, by moving laterally you are forcing the assailant to change his direction of attack since he now has to turn to follow you rather than just charging straight down your throat. Finally, you're also screwing with his OODA loop because now you're no longer where you were a second ago and he now has to re-orient to your current location (and he has to do all this while you're dumping rounds into his chest).

[jdsumner]

"i've practiced my draw and it's right at around 1.5 seconds, by 2 seconds i'll have two rounds out. "--Yddnac

You're still cut.

"It might sound weird, but if i were attacked by a knifeman i'd fall back and defend myself with my legs... your arms aren't big enough or fast enough to defend your vital areas, taking the cat-like defensive posture seems like the best way to continue to deliver some shots. Maybe this is a bad idea, but you won't gain any significant time by backing up, turning around would be suicide, and standing your ground is a good way to get your abdomen or heart cut."---Yddnac

Be sure not to shoot thru a leg. You can bleed out pretty quickly from at bullet thru the femoral artery.

Dan.

[jdsumner]

Lateral movement. Prepare to fight without your gun. Worse yet, prepare to try to retain your holstered pistol (since it wasnt out b4 the attack began well inside 21' as most violent attackers arent that courteous) so that 'knife boy' doesnt walk away with a customized Colt as well.

Dan

[RSSZ]

Would agree with move offline and if practical/possible to YOUR right if he has the weapon in his RIGHT hand.

Don't attempt to produce ANY other weapon but your firearm.(Don't induce a blade,SAP,mace/OC,etc.,to a knife fight) He's got a knife.....you gotta come up with a gun.

This will be a "shoot from retention" thing. Hopefully you have practiced this entensively(we do).

This will also probably be a a shoot him to the ground(and then some) thing. You guys with them super hi-cap weapons will "shine" during this fight.

You WILL get cut. Don't let the sight of your own blood deter you from finishing the fight. Direct pressure will easily save you.

Hopefully you will only have to deal with one BG. If there were three and only one attacked me,the other two had better be gone when I finished with the initial attacker. Unfortunatedly,if they are standing their with their mouths open they just might get shot also.

This type of thing will be very bad for us no matter what the outcome. ----------

[jdsumner]

Some more video to drive home the point of how hosed you are if you havent engaged early---very early. I am hopeful Mr. Suarez and Co dont mind the link. http://dogbrothersvideo.com/interfacetrailer.wmv

Dan

[jdsumner]

I most certainly do not hold any answeres here. This is a nightmare situation for me. I have sustained fair cuts just butchering livestock and wild game. I can only imagine what a 'sewing maching ' stab to the face and neck must be like. If I can survive or dodge long enough to draw my pistol, and my attacker is close enough (as he probably is) the contact shot 'seems' to be the highest odds hit to me. We all know that hg rounds suck. BUT, contact blasts are rarely survivable. And by contact, I mean just that. Press the muzzle against ribs, guts or faces and start hooking. The downside (and it really bites) is if I can touch him, he's touching me.
But for my training and my world, I have to be realistic:
1) knife attacks are gonna be BAD for me. Bravado aside, I am gonna get cut.
2) I can do everything right and still die. That's the cold hard fact.

I thank Rob for starting this as it has prompted me to re commit to some integrated training. And has reminded me of the fact my pistol is a tool, in a toolbox.

Dan

[rocky]

Off line movement , dropping to the ground and using the legs to defend all are good ideas. the muzzle contact to the body might work , but some guns are disabled by this action. (1911 among other) Better to find out before the attack than during. (do this with snap caps , and be SURE the gun is empty)

[retsupt99]

it's your time. I try to be alert, I practice with my weapons, and I feel confident...but...
At 60, and with a few organs removed during the last year...I know I'm not the same guy I was only a few years ago. I'm no whimp, but I know my limits, and those boundaries get smaller with age.
Surviving a knife attack seems difficult at best. Hopefully, my body will be found on top of 20-30 empty shell casings.
Prevention is better than engaging...and being VERY alert all of the time has to be so important. Some of my 'more liberal thinking' friends probably think that I am both a gun nut and way too cautious about checking out parking lots, etc...but that's what I hope will help save me or give me the edge in a BG situation!

Stay very alert...stay safe!

[retsupt99]

great eye-opening video!
Forgot to mention that...got carried away for a moment...Sorry!

ret

[IndianaJones]

Having taken over 2 decades of martial arts, and being pretty new to handgun's in general I find this quite an interesting topic.

Primarily, I have found that people that would use a Knife, become a one armed fighter from the first instance of a confrontation.

I personally, depending on the exact circumstances, may not even attempt to draw my handgun if the BG is close to my personal being....at least not for 20 seconds or so after I break his arm. lol.

Your mileage may differ. ;)

[Gary Crumrine]

Friends,

The Tueller Drill, as I recall, established 21 feet as the threshold distance at which a pistolero reached equality with a knifeman. In other words, if the knifeman was more than seven yards distant, the pistolero's chance of drawing and firing an effective shot improved. If the knifeman was less than 21 feet, the pistolero's chances diminished. The bad news is that knife attacks almost always (not always, but almost always) begin within four yards.

This should not surprise any of us. FBI statistics, I think, establish that most armed street conflicts occur within 12 feet. Armed attacks happen close, maybe within two or three or possibly four strides. And they surprise. No knifeman advertises his intention. What does that mean? It means there is no way a man can draw and stop an unanticipated attack from within the the length of a small car before a determined knifeman gets his cut(s) in.

Martial artists almost universally have optomistic ideas about their effectiveness vs. a trained knifeman. One of my former teachers, a Kung Fu San Soo Master of almost 30 years, and a man of demonstrated ability, thought differenty until he saw a demonstration by a skilled Valencia Lameco man. It doesn't make any difference what your unarmed art is (except, perhaps, for Hakkoryu Jiu Jitsu), if you are not a knifefighter, you will lose to one.

Now, not all knife cultures are equally effective. But there are enought good ones -- particurlarly the Filipino schools -- that one should realize that (at least in my opinion) the only defense against a close range surprise knife attack is if you had already learned the defenses incorporated in all good Filipino knife arts.

Or you could ask your partner to shoot him off you.

Cordially,
Gary Crumrine