Us and them...

This is a discussion on Us and them... within the Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Chad Rogers A premise that I have essentially seen set forth in this thread is that if you don't shoot 3X a ...

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  1. #136
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    A premise that I have essentially seen set forth in this thread is that if you don't shoot 3X a week, or take formal raining 5X a year, then you're just dead meat out there on the streets.

    I find that utterly preposterous.
    Chad if you are quoting me for saying that.....you haven't read one thing I have posted....sorry.

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  3. #137
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    There are many examples of people successfully defending themselves and property with no real training, and what many would deem inferior weapons. The latest incident happened last night in Georgetown Ky.

    4 people, 3 males and one female, broke into an indoor flea market. The owner, an older man heard the glass break and confronted them. He shot the girl twice with a 22 rimfire pistol. She ran out to the parking lot and collapsed. The others ran like hell, but were later arrested. The girl lived.

    All elements of that go against everything that is the thinking of today. The 22 should have been ineffective, and the old man should not have prevailed without formal training.
    But he did, and it worked.
    I could go on and on with this type of stuff I have seen in my 17 years on the job. And also a few times when the person with the most training died.

    Know how to handle yourself first, your weapon second, and understand the legalities. There are no absolutes.
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  4. #138
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowflyer View Post
    I think of the tactical training classes about like I think of the concealed carry badges that are offered for sale at some gun shows and in the back of some magazines. I am not LE, so my first defense is to avoid trouble. My second defense is to flee trouble. My third defense is to put a solid object between me and trouble and aim for trouble's CNS. A LEO does not have the luxury of the first two defenses. We pay them to go hang out where trouble lives, find the trouble, get in the trouble's face, and remove the trouble from society--of course, all without getting injured and without violating the trouble's civil rights. That is what sets us CC guys way apart from LEOs and why LEOs require training and CC guys can and do survive quite handily with a little range time and a healthy dose of common sense.

    Still, if you like tactical training and want to spend money that way, go for it. Just don't go around trying to convince others that it gives you a better chance of surviving a trip to Wally World than any other armed Joe Bag-o-donuts. Just like a lifted Jeep Wrangler 4x4, though way awesomer, doesn't do any better getting to the Wally World than a Toyota Camry about 99.995% of the time. :-P
    Toyota Camrys live in the ditch November through March, up here. Whereas those Jeep Wranglers have the ability to push through the obstacles and do what needs to be done.

    Even that example comes back to training and experience. Someone that drove in California all their life would die on these roads in the winter. I however, have grown up here and have experienced what it's like to slide down a highway sideways, hit a patch of black ice at 70mph, and most importantly, I've driven in snow over my hood. That experience has lead to me being able to drive just about anything, anywhere. Ability will always win out over inability. Always.

    The whole point of this thread is that the person that has training and experience under his belt will likely fair better than the average Joe Bag-o-donuts in a SD situation. Even a minimal amount of training is better than nothing, but I strongly advise anyone serious about carrying to at least take a basic pistol course.

  5. #139
    P95
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    These links will put things in perspective...I bet this 15 year old and 71 year old trained daily.....Hundreds of examples just like these......the average joe can take care of themselves.

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...bigger-robber/

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...kills-burglar/
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  6. #140
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    This Video is about ten minutes I think it pertains to this thread. Watch the whole thing to be relevant.

    I also think the minute we strap on a firearm in self defense, out mindset should be in line with that.

    the unforgiven final scene - YouTube
    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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  7. #141
    P95
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    This doctor kept his gun in a storage cabinet and still rescued 50 hostages.....now thats training.

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...age-situation/
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  8. #142
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    TSIWRX, sorry bout that. So, what is the measuring stick that you use to determine how this will help you in a real life or death situation. Is there any particular technique that you have learned that you feel will allow you to overcome a given situation? Is it applicable to all situations?


    ^ It's OK. It's the Errornet, after all!

    The best measuring stick, I think, is myself. I can measure myself from yesterday to today. That I will not commit the errors I've made yesterday is the only marker that truly says that I've learned something. I cannot say that I will, because of my training one day, be sure to "beat" a new FoF scenario the next - but I can tell you with certainty that if the scenario that defeated me yesterday was played again today, that I would prevail.

    To a certain extent, I can also measure myself by my fellow class-mates. In coming to know their experiences and backgrounds, I am given a peek at, many times, the person I was as well as the person I hope to be. I help those who are less experienced than myself with their problems, and when I encounter trouble, I take heed of what more experienced students may be able to teach me. Like P95 asked, how can I know that I can do better than "the Average Joe?" I know because I know the background of the guys and gals with me in class - a setting in which our performances can be quantified. But here, it serves well to remember that the "Any Given Sunday" syndrome is ever-present. As some have mentioned in previous posts, there's always that factor.

    As for techniques, and I do apologize yet again for being unspecific in my answer, I think that yes, there are specific and concrete skills X which can be taught that will help overcome problems Y in a very real-world manner.

    However, in the context of this thread - the idea of having to attend formal training classes - I do not believe that such an atmosphere is essential to LEARNING said skills, including learning how to use them. However, I do believe that a structured atmosphere, one with live thinking "foe(s)" or an atmosphere that provides the necessary incentives/stress as well as a mindful instructor who can critique your execution of said tactics and techniques, will provide proper validation and/or necessary corrections, to make sure that you're "doing it right." After all, while I may not have ever been under critical stress, an instructor with direct-action military background or law-enforcement background can give me insight into what has worked in his/her past experience. While I have never been in a real knife-fight or car-jacked, an instructor who has spent time on the streets as a vice or undercover narcotics officer may again be able to teach me the skills that he has come to learn.

  9. #143
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    TSiWRX, thanks for your response. I'd say you have a good head on your shoulders, and will benefit greatly.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  10. #144
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    These links will put things in perspective...I bet this 15 year old and 71 year old trained daily.....Hundreds of examples just like these......the average joe can take care of themselves.

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...bigger-robber/

    https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm...kills-burglar/
    I don't subscribe to the "train daily or die" mentality, and I doubt many in this thread do. Since I teach 4H Shooting Sports, I'm at a range once a week. I usually get there early and spend some quality time with each of my guns. In the off season, I visit my home range every other week or so. I've never attended a formal class other than a basic NRA course that I took for S&G's. I just never saw the need. I was taught to shoot by the guy that scored 1st or 2nd on every qual, every time, and I know where my ability is at because of that. I'd love to take a good class, but I can never seem to get into a Larry Vicker's class.

    I consider "regular training" to mean getting to the range as often as you can. Whether that's once a week or once a month, it doesn't matter. Train as often as you can to keep your skills as sharp as you can. The people referred to in the OP are the people that buy a gun, MAYBE take it to the range once and think they're ready to take on anything the world throws at them.

    Someone surviving an encounter without training proves absolutely nothing. Just like someone can be shot in the head with a 9mm and survive, but that doesn't mean everyone, or even a percentage of those, will. It's a game of numbers, with a lot of luck thrown in. While we can't account for everything, I'd like to have as many numbers on my side as possible. That's why I carry my gun in the first place.

  11. #145
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ Hey, wait a minute - P95 simply quoted me, that's all.


    -----

    One more thing -->

    One consistent piece of advice that comes from virtually every trainer/instructor I've come across so far:

    That the skills they teach in the class setting - and your practice during that very small period of training - is not intended to grant you proficiency at those skills. Rather, it is intended to introduce to the concept/skill and to, in the limited time available with the instructor/in the school, at least make reasonably sure that you're doing it right.

    What you do with the skills, after the class is over, is completely up to you. You have to be committed to practicing that skill, in-earnest, in order to achieve and maintain true proficiency.

    One of my persistent regrets has been, so far, that I have not been able to attend the twice-weekly "Combative Conditioning" meets that one of my local "integrated" instructors puts on. His single-day seminar classes are chocked-to-the-brim with techniques and tactics, but the limited time spent on each skill means that it's really only an introduction - and his weekly meets is where his students get the chance to explore such skills in-depth, both through rote repetition as well as increasing tempo.

    HUH...you never answered my question???
    That's because you were reading my reply to glockman10mm, whom I addressed with the "^", signifying "the post immediately above."

    At that point, I was trying to convey to glockman10mm that he'd made the mistake of thanking you for the answer I gave to his question earlier, since he unintentionally thought that you'd written my reply, which you simply quoted.

    I replied directly to your question:

    Quote Originally Posted by P95 View Post
    Have you had the opportunity to do this...run a gun under stress???? Do you have proof you can do this better than the average joe? Or you now feel you can do this since you took a "class."
    .....with.....

    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    ^ The proof is the first-timers next to me. When the stress of the class make them index their cell-phone instead of a magazine and try to - repeatedly - cram it into the magwell of their gun. When the stress of a Force-on-Force scenario covers them in bruises or paint from repeated hits from their opponents. When the stress of a timer causes them to drop shots.

    The proof is also the much more experienced individuals who are also my line-mates, class-mates, or training partners.

    When I fumble a mag-change and they don't? When their shots are on-target quicker than I can deliver mine? When I'm too winded to battle two "bad guys" in the next FoF scenario, but they're still going strong? When their training knife digs into my ribs? That's proof to me that I have more work to do.

    These aren't hypothetical stories. These are taken from my past year-and-a-half's worth of honestly trying to improve myself, in this respect: from my time spent in class, from what I witnessed with my own two eyes and my own most humbling experiences.

    Have I ever had to run my gun under critical stress? No, I have not. And by God, I pray I will *never* have to do so.

    But I put in honest work in training so that when that most unthinkable of scenarios comes to pass, even if I completely froze in place, I can still close my eyes at night and go to sleep with a clear conscience in that I at least did my best to *try* to prepare for it.

    Have I ever had to use my home or vehicle fire-extinguishers? No, I have not.

    Have I ever had the need for my home's smoke detectors or CO detectors? No, I have not.

    Have I ever had to do CPR?

    Have I ever needed the airbag on my cars?

    Have I ever needed my life insurance policy?

    The examples I gave to glockman10mm's very thought provoking questions weren't hypotheticals. Please read my post again, P95, because I wrote very clearly that I had witnessed, first-hand, such blunders of "Average Joes" - that my own errors prove that I am very much, myself, an "Average Joe."

    But a "Joe" by any other name is just another person. And as a person, we can all better ourselves. I bettered myself by realizing my errors and training to overcome them. If anything, attending such classes has made me realize that I have much more to learn.

    ------



    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    However, that happens just as often with people who attend classes. They sometimes have not established objectives based on their own needs, pay alot of money, and attend a course that has absolutely nothing in common with their lives.
    I agree.

    Not so much that the class doesn't have anything in common with their daily lives - after all, how many shooting classes out there are tailored specifically towards the civilian legal concealed-carrier? - but rather moreso with your statement that many who attend such classes do not have an end-goal in-mind, and even moreso, an end-goal that is in-tune with their daily reality.

    It's not the instructors fault. As a matter of fact, I give Gabe alot of credit for saying " you don't know what you don't know". That's exactly the truth.
    It is the responsibility of the student to choose a curriculum that best suits his or her needs.
    Precisely.

    Additionally, the student who haphazardly and misguidely attends a course designed for a more armed forces/ LE program, and leaves feeling that they are prepared for anything is about as well off as the greenhorn that you describe.
    And exactly.

    ...the more I trained, the more I realized that if you don't have a dog inside of you willing to come out and fight, then it's over. There are something's that just cannot be trained into some people, and they will never be a fighter.

    Mike Tyson said the most intelligent thing in his life, when he said something about an up coming fight. When told how his opponent was training and preparing for their fight he stated;

    " everybody's got a plan, till they get hit in the mouth"
    And from what I've seen over the years, that's the damn truth!
    While I definitely agree with this sentiment, I also must say that, in-reality, there's simply no way to account for this variable until you are in that fight-of-your-life.

    As such, even though it is the stark truth, I do not think that it is a - and I truly don't think that these are necessarily appropriate words that I'm choosing, here - "viable excuse" to say that training isn't necessary: that you can, in essence, train all you want, but that you may still end up being a coward when the moment comes...so why bother.

    In that this is one of those variables that cannot be tested, I think the only thing for me to do is to train: because I know that my acquiring the skills is a certainty. The post by the member below really mirrors my own beliefs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    Someone surviving an encounter without training proves absolutely nothing. Just like someone can be shot in the head with a 9mm and survive, but that doesn't mean everyone, or even a percentage of those, will. It's a game of numbers, with a lot of luck thrown in. While we can't account for everything, I'd like to have as many numbers on my side as possible. That's why I carry my gun in the first place.
    And, of-course, I pray that if I was called upon, that I would prevail instead of shrink away.


    ----


    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    A premise that I have essentially seen set forth in this thread is that if you don't shoot 3X a week, or take formal raining 5X a year, then you're just dead meat out there on the streets.

    I find that utterly preposterous.
    I agree that said assumption is preposterous.

    There is always luck.

    There is always the "Any Given Sunday" syndrome.

    There will always be those who rise to the occasion.

    But at the same time, I think we can all also agree that being prepared is better than not. After all, isn't that why we choose to arm ourselves? And if that's the case, then would it not be logical to know how to properly employ our weapons - including our bodies, if need-be? Should we not be fit enough to carry on such a fight? And if we are contemplating such ends, should we not both know the laws as well as set a resolve in our mind, one that insists that we will prevail?

    To me, it's not an absolute - it's more about the individual recognizing where their weaknesses are, so that they can seek to better themselves in an honest manner, so that they can win that fight.

    Me?

    I probably take too many pistol courses because I'm decent behind the trigger, and because I think shooting is fun.

    But I know that I need more work in hand-to-hand/knife/improvised weapons and integrated combatives, and I scold myself for not "making time" to train in these areas , and promise myself that after my current commitments are over, I'll redouble my efforts, here.

    Similarly, I know that with my current fitness level, I won't last long in a fight - and that's unacceptable. So I train a bit more every day, so that I can be better.

  12. #146
    Distinguished Member Array pirate's Avatar
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    Generally everybody on this forum went to work and came home today without getting shot at or shooting somebody in self defense. This happen almost everyday for most of us in this country. There are a lot of bad people and bad things do happen everyday in this country. But our mass media and love of the "story" makes it seem more prevalent than it really is for most of us. If you own firearms and use them to protect yourself and family, sure get some training and built your skills and confidence in your abilities. I certainly have. Also get your body in some semblance of shape. Do you need to spend several thousand dollars a year and corresponding hours on training. No, unless you are an operator of some kind and that does not really assure you of anything. Many of the best trained operators in the world have had their story ended by a untrained peasant with an AK in some far off hellhole. Training is certainly a wise decision but does not guarantee survival. I would like to think I have my act together for the most part, but in reality it often comes down to plain luck, or bad luck in many cases.
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  13. #147
    P95
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    Quote Originally Posted by TSiWRX View Post
    That's because you were reading my reply to glockman10mm, whom I addressed with the "^", signifying "the post immediately above."

    At that point, I was trying to convey to glockman10mm that he'd made the mistake of thanking you for the answer I gave to his question earlier, since he unintentionally thought that you'd written my reply, which you simply quoted.

    I replied directly to your question:



    .....with.....




    ------





    I agree.

    Not so much that the class doesn't have anything in common with their daily lives - after all, how many shooting classes out there are tailored specifically towards the civilian legal concealed-carrier? - but rather moreso with your statement that many who attend such classes do not have an end-goal in-mind, and even moreso, an end-goal that is in-tune with their daily reality.



    Precisely.



    And exactly.



    While I definitely agree with this sentiment, I also must say that, in-reality, there's simply no way to account for this variable until you are in that fight-of-your-life.

    As such, even though it is the stark truth, I do not think that it is a - and I truly don't think that these are necessarily appropriate words that I'm choosing, here - "viable excuse" to say that training isn't necessary: that you can, in essence, train all you want, but that you may still end up being a coward when the moment comes...so why bother.

    In that this is one of those variables that cannot be tested, I think the only thing for me to do is to train: because I know that my acquiring the skills is a certainty. The post by the member below really mirrors my own beliefs:



    And, of-course, I pray that if I was called upon, that I would prevail instead of shrink away.


    ----




    I agree that said assumption is preposterous.

    There is always luck.

    There is always the "Any Given Sunday" syndrome.

    There will always be those who rise to the occasion.

    But at the same time, I think we can all also agree that being prepared is better than not. After all, isn't that why we choose to arm ourselves? And if that's the case, then would it not be logical to know how to properly employ our weapons - including our bodies, if need-be? Should we not be fit enough to carry on such a fight? And if we are contemplating such ends, should we not both know the laws as well as set a resolve in our mind, one that insists that we will prevail?

    To me, it's not an absolute - it's more about the individual recognizing where their weaknesses are, so that they can seek to better themselves in an honest manner, so that they can win that fight.

    Me?

    I probably take too many pistol courses because I'm decent behind the trigger, and because I think shooting is fun.

    But I know that I need more work in hand-to-hand/knife/improvised weapons and integrated combatives, and I scold myself for not "making time" to train in these areas , and promise myself that after my current commitments are over, I'll redouble my efforts, here.

    Similarly, I know that with my current fitness level, I won't last long in a fight - and that's unacceptable. So I train a bit more every day, so that I can be better.
    In other words....no...you haven't. You have no clue what you could actually do.....just speculate.

  14. #148
    Distinguished Member Array ericb327's Avatar
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    I've read most of the lengthy and opinionated posts and agree with most points on both sides of the argument. I thought I would share a story.

    Last summer one of the local heroin addicts that lived across the street from me was antagonizing me and calling me into the street to throw fists. A friend who was over for dinner said it would be quite easy to kick his but and that I should go down there and do it. I agreed. However, I told him that this is a Bad Guy, he doesn't live by the same ethics and morals as we do. This guy who looks so easy to defeat would not think twice about stabbing me in the throat!

    My point! Bad guys, Killers, Thieves, Rapist, thugs and drug addicts live their lifestyles 24/7/365. They are in a way professionals at what they do. Just like Soldiers and LEOs. These bad guys have all day to think about how they are going to kill, steal, rob and rape. We as honorable and law abiding citizens are just not of the same mindset. Training can help to make us more proficient in firearms and tactical simulations. However, unless we are thrust into a war zone or career that forces us to think like a warrior we will never be on the same level as criminals, soldiers and LE. I practice to the best of my ability to put me a little closer to their level.

    I agree with both sides but I have no illusions of how harsh the real world is. My respect for human life and high moral standards puts me at a disadvantage to someone that does not. Remember we all work, live and play at different threat levels. What is practical and prudent for some may not be for another.

    Just some thoughts!
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    For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War

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    Great points ericb327! I try to get range time in at least twice a month. I dry fire my carry guns every day before putting them on. I think through different scenerios each time, I try to be very aware of my surroundings ,including people and backgrounds. I do feel like a part of being a concealed carry population does add an extra dimension to my public presence. Do I ever anticipate drawing or firing my guns in a SD situation..No. Do I feel prepared to do so if neccessay. Yes. Will I come out on top (alive) in such a shtf deal... NO ONE will ever know until it happens. Kinda like driving. Any one here ever anticipate a car wreck before it happened? Guess we just drive the safest car we can, and try to make it til the next day.
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  16. #150
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Simply put.... to each their own..........
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